ZERO Coding: How She Broke Into Cyber

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And so I mean that's what happened. I I did aerospace mechanical. I loved it. I turned down SpaceX and Boeing which people are like why? But SpaceX was still blowing up rockets at the time. Like they had no successful rocket launch >> and I was like I can't go to that. Like they're probably going to lose funding and 750,000 views when I had like nobody. And I think I got like 40,000 followers. >> That's amazing. >> And yeah, I think it just don't be a perfectionist. Post it. Show up as your full self. And if you're actually providing value added content, it will it'll start showing up. >> Everyone, David Bumble coming to you from Black Hat with a very very special guest. Caitlyn, great to have you on the show. >> So happy to be here. I was so excited to see you when we when we got here. >> Yeah, exactly. It was fantastic to see you and you are killing it on Instagram, Tik Tok, and other platforms. So, well done. >> Thank you. I could say the same about you. It's been amazing. >> 1.2 million on Instagram now. >> Yeah. >> And Tik Tok. >> Tik Tok. I'm at 500,000. I kind of gave up on Tik Tok like two years ago. I'm not going to lie. >> Why is that? >> Um, well, I I loved it and then I worked for them and then I just stopped loving it. >> Big shout out to Brilliant for sponsoring this video. One of the most important skills you need to develop in today's uncertain world of AI where everything seems to change every day and everything advances at breakneck speed is critical thinking. If you really want to think better and understand the underlying AI tools that you'll be using daily and want to solve problems with real clarity across any subject, you should try Brilliant. It's not just about facts. It's about transforming how your brain thinks. With Brilliant, you learn by doing. You go through interactive lessons and solve problems. 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You gotta tell us that story. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, I I started only on Tik Tok and the reason why I was called Cyber Security Girl was because I was like mortified that people that I worked with were going to find out that I was on it and I was like a director at like like one of the largest law firms in the world at the time and I I spec specifically in data privacy. So, which is even more ironic that I'm on TikTok because originally I was telling people don't go on Tik Tok, don't go on Tik Tok. And then when they moved and they said, hey, we're partnering with Oracle. we're going to be US-based now. I'm like, okay, now I can go on it. And I, it was during co and I was like, you know, I really want to make this platform to educate the public on like what cyber security is and demystify what a career looks like and which we'll talk about later cuz I love how we talk about career and then also like get more women into uh cyber and STEM fields. I was an aerospace engineer um and there was five of us and I was like okay I want to like inspire the next generation and unfortunately at that point or fortunately the next generation was on Tik Tok and um I decided I'm going to just do only on Tik Tok no one else. My name was never tied to it. It was just cyber security girl and I was like I'm going to post three times a day and if it doesn't go anywhere after a year I'm done like >> three times a day. >> Three times a day. >> That is commitment >> it is. But I you know people don't realize I didn't have like a family like that was my life. So I would work and then I was like, you know, we couldn't do anything. It was co. So I was like, okay, I have, you know, hours of time at this point. I would cook a healthy meal and then I'd like do research and then and not all of them were like talking videos. They were like trending audio. So it was like, you know, the 8-second videos that don't take that long to edit. Um, and so and then it just blew up. But so they found me and they were asking me, "Hey, would you want to speak?" And I was like, "No, we couldn't." It was at RSA like in 2020 or 2021 and it never worked out. And then I was wanting to change roles and I applied to a privacy role at Tik Tok and I got it. I went through like four interviews. I got the privacy role. Was really excited. I messaged the person that originally reached out to me about speaking and I'm like hey by the way like really excited I'm going to head over to Tik Tok. She's like absolutely no way. Like you have to work for us our team first. and she ended up completely creating a role for me which was a global lead of lead of cyber security advocacy and culture which just meant that I was in charge of all the training for Tik Tok globally. >> Oh wow. Okay. >> Internally. So training for cyber security globally. And then I also was in charge of advocating for Tik Tok um externally. So that was the part that I was unclear about. I was like oh yeah I'm going to advocate for Tik Tok. Um that was when everyone hated Tik Tok and we were you know lobbying on the hill like the PR team reaching out to me and basically my job was anytime there was anything about Tik Tok in the news across the globe Australia, Singapore, the UK was destroying us and it was anytime they talked about cyber security my job was to go talk to the engineers see if it was a valid argument or what was going on then come back with the report within 24 hours or less because you know news moves fast >> and tell them exactly what happened, write a a thing up that they could use, but then at the end of the day, every time it was just destroyed by like we couldn't say stuff because of lawyers and PR and so then we ended up at that point just giving cookie cutter responses to everything and it was just very frustrating and I didn't even have enough time to do all training for Tik Tok which was honestly the reason why I was going there and why I was most excited. So I absolutely love and admire that platform. I think there it is a huge force for good. I obviously think there's negatives about it, but um they used to say they inspire creativity and bring joy and I really do believe that. I mean it completely changed the trajectory of my life because I only started on TikTok. So what platform did you start on at the beginning? >> YouTube. >> Yeah. So it's like if you know you have there's a big spot in your heart for YouTube, right? >> Of course. Yeah. Of course. That's how you started. Yeah. >> Yeah. Exactly. So I that's kind of and then I ended up working for them for a year and then I was like you know it's it's done. I'm going to just do my own thing and that's when I quit and started my own company. So >> that's amazing. I mean, so you got to give us a bit of your story because you went from aerospace engineer >> Yeah. >> and now cyber and between there was privacy, right? >> Yeah. So, it was my story is crazy. I loved math and science as a kid. And my parents were like, "You should consider engineering." And in my head, I'm like, "Absolutely not. That is like fully a man's job. I'm not doing engineering." And my dad's like, "You should do mechanical." And I'm like, "That is literally a car mechanic." Like in my head, I just thought of a dirty car mechanic. Not because anyone told me, I just like that's what I assumed. I don't I just didn't see anything different. So, I went to school as an elementary education major. I wanted to be an elementary school teacher and um I went for like two or three months and then I was convinced actually you're going to get the long story. So, I was told I was a cheerleader in college and I was told that the easiest like genad class, you know, the the standard mandatory classes you have to take when you're freshman. So, the easiest science class that you could take was the intro to engineering and it just like went through all the different engineering courses. And so my other cheerleader friend was like, "You have to convince them that you're really interested in engineering in order to get in because it's always the what the athletes take because it's the easiest class and it's probably already full." So I went into it being like, I'm going to convince the out of this person. I'm going to I'm going to be like the most convincing person that I'm interested in engineering. Well, I didn't realize that my uh freshman adviser was also the adviser for the mechanical engineering school. >> Oh, that's funny. >> Had no idea. And she was like, "You're really interested." And she got really excited cuz I'm obviously a woman. and she switched my majors and I had no idea. She put me on the mechanical engineering track and I did such a good job of convincing her. Halfway through the semester I like go to my friend. I'm like, "Why did you say this class was easy?" And she's like, "What do you mean?" And I'm like, "It's so hard. Like, this is not an easy genad class." And she's like, "What teacher do you have?" And I told her, she's like, "That's not the class I was talking about." And and it turns out I went back to my counselor. She's like, "Oh, I thought you said you were interested in mechanical engineering, so I put you on in the intro to mechanical engineering track and I switched your track." And I was like, "What?" And at that point, we were already in. I was like, "It is interesting. I really like this. My parents would love it." And um I actually got a scholarship uh because I wrote an essay about how I accidentally fell into engineering. >> That's hilarious. >> Um and so when I switched into engineering, I actually unfortunately lost part of my scholarship because my scholarship was based on the school I got into. So I decided to apply to other schools um just to see I didn't want to leave, but I ended up going to USC for aerospace mechanical engineering and stayed there and got my masters in it. Loved it. I did an internship at GE. I worked in alternative energy. So all the board-mounted power devices, by the way, terrible at electrical engineering. Could not If I can't see it, it's not happening. And ironically, now I'm in cyber. Um, and then I did uh Chevron. I worked in an oil refinery with steel toad boots and a hard hat and coveralls. >> Oh wow. >> Yeah. And I also >> You got to have some photos of that. >> Oh, I I have some. It's pretty great. Uh and then I also worked at Abbott Labs in like supply chain pharmaceuticals and I loved every bit of it but after my masters I was like I love it but can I see myself here in you know more than 5 years and I I was like I'm going to get bored at every single place. I was seeing like you know guys at the oil refinery that have been working at the oil refinery doing the same thing for 60 years and I was like absolutely not. There's no way. And so I my cousin actually went into consulting and I was like let me try consulting because you can try different things and then kind of figure out where you want to go. And when I was applying, one of the ladies at EY that was interviewing me was like, hey, would you be interested in in cyber security? And my immediate thought was absolutely not. Um, that's a man's job. I don't know. I I had to take mat lab in school and it it's not really coding, but it is coding and terrible. That was I got C minuses in both my mat lab classes. So, in my head, I'm like not going to tell this lady that I'm basically almost failed mat lab, but I'm going to say yes because, you know, we do anything for the job. And I was like sure yeah like sounds interesting. And then as as we went through the interview process I was talking to my parents about it and like you know I got you know an SAP intern SAP Accenture consulting job I you know deoid but as I was talking to my parents they're like you know I think cyber security is like going to be big like it's it is going to be where it's at. And this was 12 13 years ago and I was I was intrigued and so I said I said yes to the cyber security consulting and I learned everything on the job. don't code, by the way. And that was one of the reason why I started my channel because I was like, everyone thinks I'm coding. I'm terrible at coding and don't need to know how to code. >> Everyone thinks you need to be a a raid teamr going. >> Yeah. And so I mean that's what happened. I I did aerospace mechanical. I loved it. I turned down SpaceX and Boeing, which people are like, why? But SpaceX was still blowing up rockets at the time. Like they had no successful rocket launch >> and I was like, I can't go to that. Like they're probably going to lose funding. And Boeing was government funded. And my dad had worked at a government funding funded company before. My dad actually worked at Boeing. He's like, you know, it's really based on like who's in charge of the government, so it's kind of iffy. Um I also had a friend that worked there for like three years at the time and she had never got like moved up and I was like like you can only move up if someone dies basically or leaves. Um and I didn't like that either. So yeah, I mean there were so many opportunities and I always was like, "Oh, I can go back to it." And sometimes I kind of miss it. I'm like, "Maybe I should go back to SpaceX or something." >> No, I think I think what you're doing is doing is doing great. >> But I love it. Yeah. So that's I mean I fell into cyber and that's why I was so passionate about telling people like you don't need a cyber degree. You don't need to know how to code. Like I started in cyber transformation. So with EY I my first project was going up to Cisco and we helping them get ISO 2701 certified which is a certification in you know and you had to understand really every area of cyber in order to help them get certification. And then we went into more of a transformation role. So you went in to assess companies on you know 20 different key cyber domains. you know, asked them a bunch of questions, went and talked to every different team in cyber and then really assessed them and said, "Hey, here's where you are. Here's where your competitors are. Here's how we can get you more mature in XYZ area." And so that really gave me a really solid baseline of all the areas in cyber. And then I started realizing, okay, this is getting boring. We're doing the same assessment over and over again. Let me go to data privacy. And data pro well was data protection. Data privacy wasn't a thing. >> I love the story. You do something, get bored, and then you jump into the next thing. I love that. Go on. >> This is the story of my life. I realized my friends like you just like being in an uncomfortable situation. Like it's uncomfortable for you, but it's exciting for me. Like I really enjoy it. Um because I think most people like doing the same thing over and over again, but that sounds like my worst nightmare. Yeah. Um so I did data protection and we were going and implementing data loss prevention tools like Mac McAfee or Macaffy. People say it differently. McAfee, I'm pretty sure it's McAfee. Um and we were like running scans and that was really interesting because we'd go into companies, we'd plug these machines in and we'd run scans. We'd say like, you know, if an email has, I don't know, how long are credit card numbers? 16, 15 digits of numbers, scan it and flag it. And we'd go in and look to just make sure that people weren't like sending stuff out. Basically, if you look at um you know, intellectual property, right? You have your crown jewels is what we'd like to call it or your high value assets. And we'd go in and try to protect what was around those high value assets for companies and make sure that like no one got in. And then I went to privacy. I moved to London. And >> you were in London two years, right? Yeah, I was in London for two years um helping companies kind of start their GDPR compliance and then into GDPR like people started being like it's not worth it and then they started giving out fines and then they're like it's worth it we need help but privacy got really big and then I came back to the US and then um worked at the law firm co hit and I was like why I had climbed that corporate ladder and I realized what am I doing this for? I'm helping large companies like I want to be helping people and no one knows what to do and like there's a bigger purpose in my life and what am I doing and yeah I slowed down and I started realizing and that that's when I created cyber security girl. >> What's the focus on the all the content that you're creating? >> Yeah. So there's three pillars and I always had the first was get more women in STEM. >> Y >> um not just like you know cyber but STEM fields in general because I wish I had someone I could see myself I want people to see themselves in cyber. get more people in cyber and demystify what cyber security was because when I started they had said um you know in 2025 we're going to have 600,000 open jobs and no one's going to be able to fill them. So, all right, let's do this. And then the third was really to teach people how to be safe online like your mom or your sister that you know don't care about cyber like how do we make them care? And honestly, that third pillar was a smaller pillar. It was not my main focus. My main focus was all about career at the beginning and then it started turning into more >> going to say yeah a lot of the content is like is that now? >> Yeah. A lot of my content is really just general awareness and >> but it's so important today. >> Yeah. Yeah. No, I just I I feel like I have like a mission to like No one's doing it. No one is I like I've there's people doing it to an extent like there's amazing um you know mommy protection kind of influencers that are like here protect your kids um and there's like you know certain ones are on surveillance but no one's really doing like kind of the general broadsp spectrum sweep and I tell people all the time like I want to be an influencer like please do it like my voice is going to get annoying after a while you're probably already annoyed a bit not at all not at all come on >> yeah so >> but it's like you say you need more voices and different you reach different audiences My slight might be different to yours and yeah, different stories. Exactly. >> And um also just it allowed, this sounds really weird and we'll talk about this too, but it allowed me to be back in my feminine because I felt like I was grinding so much. And to be honest, I had a lot of like not trauma, but like you know, relationship drama and all that. And I was like I was escaping my life with work. Um and I was grinding and I was like, I'm going to prove myself and I'm going to prove it to these people. And I started realizing I'm not proving it to anyone but myself. >> Exactly. >> And why do I need to prove it to myself that I belong here? Um, and it wasn't until co CO was really I know it was terrible for many people and I totally get that, but it was a really big blessing for me because it really allowed me to slow down and listen to what like my heart wanted and what I needed to do. And being in that slowdown, it really allowed me to be back in my feminine and like realize what I'm missing. And it's actually come full circle of I really truly believe that nothing in our life is wasted. So I always want to be a teacher. I actually used to go in high school to go teach local kids like neurody divergent kids math because I loved math. I really want to be a teacher. Now I'm like I am a teacher. Like I literally get to be a teacher every day. And um being in able to like slow down allowed me to just like I feel like fully be myself. I lived in like a box. And I think a lot of people think oh I have to act this one way. I have to be this one way to do it. And honestly if you're doing that then you're just like everyone else and you're not going to get ahead in life. You're going to just continue to grind and >> I love that >> do your thing. >> Yeah. If you get to fully be yourself, >> y >> whatever that looks like and you come again, you your full self, you're unstoppable. Um cuz I really like I was a cheerleader and I never said that when I did um anything. I even did it professionally. I cheered for the LA Galaxy um when I was in grad school and my dad was like, "You're going to have to quit because you're not going to get any like no one's going to take you seriously." And in cyber. And I was like, "You're right. No one will." And I quit. And I just feel like there's if I showed up as my full self and like now I get to be like bubbly and fun and like my full personality and that's when you're unstoppable. And so yeah, I just love being able to like tell people to like not fit in this box. Like you don't have to look the same. You get to embrace being different. And we actually need all the different people. I know that we talk about like red red teaming and blue teaming and I'm like I'm zero teaming. I don't know. Purple team >> nonsense. I mean the point the point is you're teaching stuff that's so important >> Yeah. >> to a wide audience. Yeah, >> it's like do you know the demographics of your audience? Is it like a lot of younger people or is it like >> even across the board? Like literally it's like 20 2020 on like under well my under 18 is like not there's like 5%. And then it's like 23% 23 or I don't know some it's it's pretty even across the board with exact all the age range groups and same actually have a more female audience. It's like 55 or 60% female. >> That's amazing for your cyber. That's amazing. >> Yeah. Yeah. So I I love it. I again I don't try to like hit a certain audience. I just try to hit like humans. >> So I want to ask you >> if I want to be influenced like you just like someone watching is this is the is the recipe to success three Tik Toks a day or what what do what do I need to do? >> Well I think you have to not be a perfectionist. Uh if if you're on social like short form maybe YouTube you can be a little bit more of a perfectionist. I know so many people that are like oh I made videos and then I don't post them because I'm scared or there's something wrong with it. I'm like, honestly, my best videos are the ones that I made a mistake in. >> Good point. >> Um, my first viral video, I said po uh I said, you know, have I been pawned? >> Yeah, >> I said pond. >> Yeah, a lot of people make that mistake. >> I didn't know I knew what poned was, but I didn't know pone was spelled like that. And I just knew how like what the website was when I was first first taught it. And so I was so mortified. I almost took it down. And my friend was like, "Caitlyn, it's getting to the people and people are still doing it." And only like, you know, certain groups know. And also like guerilla marketing, like people say the wrong words all the time just to to comment. Like I know many influencers that are like, "Oh, I say the wrong thing all the time just to like catch people's attention." So they stopped going on autopilot. So I kept it up and it got me like I think there was like 750,000 views when I had like nobody. And then I think I got like 40,000 followers. >> That's amazing. >> And yeah, I think it just don't be a perfectionist. Post it. Show up as your full self. And if you're actually providing value added content, it will it'll start showing up. >> But you got to be consistent. >> I Yeah, I think you have to be What do you think? >> Yeah, I definitely think so. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. I mean, if you post like once every 3 weeks or whatever, it's not going to you're not going to get traction. You might, but it's much harder, >> right? And right now, I only post once a day on Instagram and I there's so many things that I want to post. I just don't have the time. I'm working on figuring out like who I need to hire and like what I need to do. >> Are you full-time now doing social media? >> But I I Yeah. Yeah. But I like I mean we have the cyber career club, we have the newsletter, we have like there's so much and I do it all. I I need to hire people. >> I would advise you to Yeah, >> that that's my advice. >> Your life game changer. >> Do get people to do things that are better than you at that thing. Like Vincent behind the camera there >> is a million times better at videography, anything like this than I could ever do. >> Does he edit it? >> He does, but he's with other people that do the editing as well, but he's a much better editor than I would ever be. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. So, I think the advice is if you want to scale, get someone to do a specific task that you that they're going to do it better than you. Get that person to do that task >> and focus on what only you can do. You're the only person that could be on camera. So, that's the thing that you need to do. >> Or we can get other people to be on camera. >> You could, but I mean, at the moment, you're the you're the personality, right? You're the person. They're showing up to see you. >> Yeah. >> Um and give the other tasks to other people. >> Yeah, for sure. I know. I I've tried to delegate out like some of the scripts and stuff. It just doesn't >> Yeah. like editing if someone else could do. You got to decide. >> Edit doesn't I mean short form doesn't take long to edit. >> That is a good point. >> Yeah. And I've I have done I do have people to do the editing but honestly they take like a day or two to turn around and sometimes I need to get it out like that night. So >> that is a good point. >> But yeah, I'm working on I'm working on it. >> It's I think it's always going to be a tussle, right? Like what can you do better yourself? But yeah, I've learned to delegate. >> Yeah, I've delegated the newsletter. I've delegated a lot of the career club. I mean I still go in I like do office hours every week in the career club. um answer people's questions, but I'm not like running it every day. >> Okay. Career advice because we that's a big that was a big focus for you. I It still is. >> It still is. And I think I started career club like literally a week and a half ago. It like launched and it's already has 160 members in it. It's amazing. Um but my issue was and I'm sure you get the same everyone's like what what certification do I get? I feel like it's a no offense. It's like a robot like answer like what do I get? Why do I need to get a certification? I'm like you actually don't need a certification. And also, what area do you want to get into? So many areas. And I don't know about you, but I wouldn't be nowhere without my network. People. >> You mean people? Yeah, for sure. >> Um, and I think everyone takes that for granted. Like cyber security. Yeah. I'm I'm an extrovert introvert. I know many of people are just straight introverts. They don't really want to talk to people, but I'm telling you right now that they like you need to talk to people and you need to have that network and you need to have that community of people cuz if you're trying to operate in a silo and you're just studying by yourself and you take the certification by yourself and you're applying by yourself, you're not going to get anywhere. >> Yeah, it's a good point. Um, you need and you also need the soft skills and the soft skills come when you talk to people. >> Well, very valid. >> Every executive I've talked to, they're like, "Oh, we really want to hire these people, but like they don't have the soft skills." They, yeah, they have, you know, all the certifications and, you know, they know all the coding languages, but at the end of the day, they can't communicate. This career club is really about it's like a club. It's like people are we have office hours. So, I wanted it to be a place where people land when they don't like they want to start and they don't know where to go. We can always recommend courses that they can pay for later. My worst fear is that people are going to take these like they're getting get extorted and take these five $10,000 boot camp courses that do nothing for them, which I've had many people in my career club take and they're like we've gotten nothing out of it and you know figure out which path that they're going to go on. We have like a really in-depth 40 question AIdriven quiz that helps them understand what skills they have and what they would like to do and kind of tells them, hey, you might want to consider data protection or you might want to consider access management or you might want to consider red teaming and that helps. And then we also have obviously our weekly calls and then we have bring in experts every month that they can talk to and like network with. And then if they want to do a certification then we have study groups for specific certifications that they can work together. That's great. And then on top of that, they can get the skills if they if again if they're like a data privacy person, they're like, "Hey, I really want to present." We had someone say he learned all the Raspberry Pi stuff and he was like, "Hey, I want to teach the class how to do Raspberry Pi." And I'm like, "Great. We'll even do we'll give out Raspberry Pies to the first, you know, five people that, you know, decided they were going to press attend and then we'll have a Raspberry Pi course and you can put that on your LinkedIn saying that you taught a Raspberry Pi course. You're going to get skills on presenting. you're going to get like so it's it's being able to teach the soft skills outside of just try hack me or hack the box. >> It's a it's a problem right because I think when people think of cyber I don't know if you have the same experience but like a lot of my audience it's red teaming hacking Mr. robot type stuff, but cyber is much bigger than that. >> Yeah. >> And you say you don't code. Your videos aren't like tutorials like use end mapap or all this kind of stuff, right? >> I have I had one that was using end map, but like that was only because I had to do research myself and do it. I didn't remember how to do it. >> But I mean you're teaching other areas of cyber that are just as important. >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean there's so many like non-technical areas. I mean even aware security education and awareness now I'm like if you're no like I mean everything like even um incident response >> um like lawyers are needed for all the GRC stuff now we have all the HIPPA stuff so even if you have any health background like because there's so many like career changers too that are in there so I mean I love it. Okay, talk to your younger self. If you were starting today, what would you do? You wouldn't go you wouldn't go work on an oil rig maybe, but talk to what would you do? >> If I were starting cyber security today, again, I would try to figure out what area I wanted to get into. I would narrow it down to like two. And then I would start networking. I would start finding people on LinkedIn that were in the same job, like adding them, not reaching out to them yet, but just adding them so they can start seeing my feed. I'd start taking or researching or like being really involved in any of the news around that specific area. So for example, privacy any privacy news or AI is in cyber now. Like you can't have cyber without AI. So like there's so many people like AI is where cyber security was 10 years ago. This is a huge wide openen field. So if you're interested in AI, I would start like writing things on LinkedIn about AI. Like start advocating for yourself. If you don't show up for yourself, no one's going to know who you are. And people are really I mean I was one of them. I thought LinkedIn was so cringy. I hated LinkedIn to be honest. It's still uncomfortable for me to post. It is so important. It is like the most underrated platform. I think even if you post it, I always challenge people. We have a LinkedIn challenge in our community. Post one time a day, once a day, your your your community is going to start seeing it. Your connections are going to start seeing it. You're going to start popping up. Then it really gives you the ability to start reaching out to people because they actually know who you are at that point. They feel like they know you even if you've never met them. And so I would I would go the networking route for sure because that's what I did in college. I got pretty much every single job I applied to because every career fair I went to the career fair. I talked to every single person. I got their cards. I made notes in the back of their cards being like, "They have a daughter. They have a dog. The dog's name is this." And I'd reach out to them halfway through the semester and be like, "How are you doing? What's going on?" And I would get jobs from every company. I'm I'm not even joking. It's all You want to work with people that you like. People will hire you. Even if you may not have the skill, they'll still hire you because they'd rather work with you than someone that they don't know. The point is is that you can teach technical skills. >> Oh, yeah. Well, everything's on the job. >> Yeah. Exactly. >> And most of the stuff, I mean, unless you're talking about like Qualice or Splunk or certain things that are pretty much in every, you know, company, all the skills you're going to have to are that you are going to need are you're going to have to learn on the job because everyone has different tech stacks as long as you have a like a love of learning and you're curious and you're willing to do the hard work the first couple years. Like I was working crazy hours. I was still working crazy hours up until co and then I was like slow down. >> But and now when you're doing doing social media, isn't that just as much work or you >> Yeah. But I love it. >> Yeah. Exactly. And it's for yourself, right? >> Yeah. It's for building the brand. And then to me also like I used to see women and I'm like, "Oh, they're only doing it. They're really successful, but they don't have a family or kids." And I can't see myself there. And that was one of the things. I mean, this is getting really personal, but I was like, "Okay, climb the corporate ladder. I'm like about to turn I don't know where I was when I was in 2021, but about to turn 30, I think. And I was like, I'm making the money, but I always thought I was going to be like a young mom. Like, I love kids. I used to tell my parents I wanted a million babies. Like, I love kids. And I'm like, this is not where I thought I was going to be. And I don't think this is where I need to be. And so, being able to build your own business and then also have like somewhat of a work life balance where I can, you know, actually have time to go on dates and not be like going to another state or country the next week was like a huge priority to me. and and build being able to build my own business and hopefully eventually make, you know, passive income and help as many people. It's so rewarding and it also allows me to have a life that have the life that I want. >> Caitlyn, I want to thank you so much for sharing and for inspiring other people as well. Thanks so much. >> Thank you. I love it.