You need to take control

Key Takeaways

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I'm hoping to grow my memberships so that I can provide more free content and more high-quality content to you. Hey everyone, it's David Bombell back with a good friend of mine, Dwan. Welcome. Hey, what's up, David? Thanks for having me on. It's been a long time since we saw each other, man. It's been way too long. Yeah, it's been like what, four years, 3 years? Is it that long? Wow. Well, I mean in person, but I mean we've we've spoken online and stuff, but yeah, it was great to meet you at Cisco Live. That was in Where was that? Was that in Barcelona, was it? Yeah, that was in Barcelona. That was that was a really good time. It was before the before the nightmares of Corona and everything else or co, sorry. I know that well, I have a lot of respect for you and there's a lot of people that have a lot of respect for you in the community and I really want to thank you for everything you do for the community. I want to introduce you to my audience for people who may not know you. Dwan, I've got to start with the first question. You grew up with a trust fund. Is that right? Oh, man. You know, I come from a rich background. If only. So, so tell us where did you grow up? I I know a little bit of your story. You've you I've me I've seen little bits here and there, but could you give us like uh what happened? So, like where did you grow up? The figures in your life that made a big difference on you. Um, I just want to set a scene for, you know, where you came from and where you are today because, um, I know recently you just, uh, joined AWS. First off, I want to say, you know, thanks for having me on, David. You know, I'm excited to be here because this is like the best time to be in tech and like the most amazing time. And I I want to talk about that. But as far as my background, I'm from Canton, Ohio. And Canton is a old steel mill town. We have tken rolling bearing is from there. That's a large company. I think Debo is actually from there as well. But it's changed a lot from the old manufacturing days. Yeah. And I was kind of affected by that change because all while I was growing up, you know, I was thinking, you know what, I'll get a job working in a factory or something, making good money, take care of a family that I hope to have. But it didn't work out like that. You know, once those jobs went away, you know, Y2K happened and technology just kind of took off. Yeah. I didn't have too many options. So I decided to go to the Air Force which you know was a I was inspired by my uncle. He was always somebody that I looked up to in my life. He was in the army and I saw how he was able to get out the army and live a pretty good life and I figured me going to the military would be a great option for me to be able to advance in life as well. Yeah. I'm I'm not in the US so I don't understand like all the details. Um so maybe you could just explain it for you know the for the audience. Did I Did I hear right that you grew up in like what what what do they call it? An inner city area of of one of the one of the cities. Yeah. Is that right? Is that right? Canton, Ohio is a small town. I would say when I was little, it's probably about 80,000 people there. And now it's probably under 50,000. So think about Yeah. I don't know what um over 30 now. So in 30 years it's half the size that it was because of all those jobs left. the people that remain there, you know, they're resilient, but there's also a lot of crime. You know, there's a lot of people trying to figure out how to make it in life. And sometimes those options are in directions that I don't know, don't lead to a um a good outcome. And it's it's unfortunate. You know, I lost a lot of friends growing up because of crime and drugs and things like that. But I was thankful to have a mother and grandmother and uncles that really looked out for me and kind of, you know, nurtured me to go in the right direction because if I would have stayed in Ken, there's no telling where I would be. Yeah. I mean, I I I think you you kind of alluded to it now. Single mother. Is that right? Yep. Father never met my father. And I mean, she did she How did she manage to provide for you? And and I'm I'm not sure the details. Do you have brothers and sisters as well? No, as as a kid, you know, my mom did adopt two sisters, okay, when I was like in senior a senior in high school, but as a kid, I was the only child. And during that time, my mom was working like two jobs. You know, my grandmother would help out, but there's often times, you know, I open up the refrigerator, it's nothing in there but ketchup and baking soda, you know what I mean? Not saying we were poor, but I mean, we didn't have much, you know, I mean, we didn't have a car, you know? My grandmother helped out a lot. if it wasn't for her, you know, there's no telling how that situation would have turned out. But thankful for her to have a little bit more, she was able to help us out cuz we didn't always have enough to make it. Yeah. But I mean, I I think a lot of us have come from much better environments um or situations, should I say. I mean, that's tough if you open up the fridge and there's no food. I mean, that's not easy. And the reason I wanted to ask you about this is just to be an inspiration for others who are perhaps in a difficult situation. There's always people have it worse. I mean what's going on at the moment while we're recording this in in Ukraine and stuff. I mean there's there's bad stuff happening around the world. People are in very difficult situations. So I don't want to you know discount what people are going through. But I mean your story and I' I've heard so many other stories like yours are a real inspiration I think because you know you went from that to where you are today. When we when I met you you said I think you've said this um online as well that one of the one of the things that was tough was there was no one that looked like you. um or very few people look like you. So how do you how did you handle that and how did you overcome that and what's your encouragement to others because you know I I I'm from South Africa I live in the UK I can my accent is already a can be a problem sometimes even here and then with the US you know I had to learn another version of English so I mean that's I I don't think I had any near anywhere near the challenges that you had and other people have had but you know I just want to put it into the context that people have challenges and in your situation How did you overcome that? I stopped giving myself excuses and I stopped apologizing for being who I am. Brilliant. And accepting who I am and just kept going because what I realized in life, I think it's just because of the nature of where I grew up is that if there is no opportunity, you create your opportunity. And so I think indirectly by creating my YouTube channel and just being who I am, helping people and being intentional about the help that I want to give helped me get to where I am. To anybody else that's out there that's feeling like they're up against the odds of being black or being a woman in tech. There's so many people that would tell you yes for every person that'll tell you no. If you don't get the job that you're looking for, it probably wasn't the job for you. That's something I had to accept because there's been times that I really wanted to work at a company, walked in the interview, really didn't felt like I feel like I felt fit in, get the job, and then regret that I'm even in the environment because I don't fit in. So, I love that you said, "Don't make excuses. Is that right?" Yeah. Don't apologize for being who you are, whether it's black, being a woman, regardless, be who you are. Change that. Yeah. Exactly. So, accept who you are and be yourself. Don't try and be someone else. Is that right? Right. So, was there a time in your life where you made that decision to stop making excuses or was there did it just something that happened over time or was there an event that you know made you think, okay, I I can't make excuses for who I am and where I come from. I'm going to make the most of who I am, accept who I am, and you know, do something with that. Yeah. You know what? I never really let the fact that I'm black bother me. But the thing that like when I got out the military, I used to always shave my beard, cover up my tattoos. Yeah. You know, do all of these things so I can fit into a workplace. And then I going to one of those career fairs. I would just casual. This guy, he wanted to have a talk with me about, you know, his company. And we started talking, networking casually. He offered me a position right at right on the spot, you know, and I had my beard, I had my tattoos, and that one one situation changed everything. You've proven that you can come from a very difficult situation, single mother, you didn't have food at times, and look at what you've done now. If you were 18 or you're 23, if you could go back and talk to yourself, what would you advise yourself? First thing I would tell myself at 18 is believe in yourself. The second thing I would tell myself is be true to yourself. The third thing that I would tell myself is go after your dreams and don't let nothing stop you and don't make no excuses. Don't make any excuses. That's very powerful. I like that. And mean do you believe that likes or degrees are important or do you just believe like grit you know believing in yourself can open the doors in today's world? You need more than that. You need more than just grit. Like you you need to you need to be intentional about establishing a plan and establishing goals. Like you can't just have grit because you can have grit. You got to be focused and intentional about where you want to go. And sometimes where you want to go will make you realize that you need to pivot. And you have to be okay with pivoting because that happens in life. And then that's where grit comes in. When the direction isn't going where you want to go, you figure it out and you work through it anyway. You know what I mean? That's when grit really applies. But I think being intentional is like extremely important. I'm going to go back a bit. Um, so you got your CCNA and that opened up a lot of doors for you, but I'm assuming, you know, that's traditional networking, but I'm assuming it's not just networking. You read that book where you know how to influence people. How important was it to like make connections online? And how what would you recommend people do? Like did you use LinkedIn? Did you use Twitter? What did you use to really, you know, help you open doors? Again, this goes back to this being the best time to be in tech. For me, when I started, I don't think LinkedIn was pretty much established as it is now and being used like it is now at the scale it is and the opportunity that you have now. For me, it was more so labing every day, you know, really understanding the technologies. And then when I would go to the boot camp, my boot camp actually would have career fairs. So I would go and talk to different recruiters. I would get their their communication and then we would establish that relationship over email at that time. Fast forward to when I got on LinkedIn you know I just kind of sh started sharing what I was learning you know commenting encouraging other people and you know building relationships continually with those recruiters and hiring managers which again LinkedIn give you access to whoever you want to work for right now. So, you know, you could reach out directly to a hiring manager or recruiter and ask them, you know, about an opportunity and kind of maybe just talk to them about the skill set that they're looking for. So, you can work on that skill set to build it for yourself. Through those relationships, that really just helped guide me in the right direction to get to, let's say, Cerner, where I worked at, I think, in 2019 with you. It took me 10 years to get in Cerner. 10 whole years to get in Cerner. And then finally when I got in center it was like wow you know like wow it it I really made it you know what I mean? Tell me about this lab everyday thing cuz um not many people well some of the audience might not have heard of that and you know I also want to come back to you mentioned something in the latest book that you read about spending 4 hours a day on something. So could you talk about lab every day and then talk about this 4hour thing. So and Gary Keller talks about the one thing and in the one thing he talks about spending four hours a day on that one thing. Do you know the saying where it takes 10,000 hours to be an expert or whatever? Yeah. Well, with lab every day, this is before I read the one thing. I would go to the lab, let's say working on EIGRP, and I would do this consist consistently five days a week. And then the weekend comes, I take two days off. Monday comes, I got to relearn everything I learned those previous five days. And so what I what I realized like, you know what, I can't take any days off. If I'm going to get this certification, I got to be consistent. whether it be four hours a day, one hour a day or 30 minutes reviewing I have to do this every day. And so that's where kind of lab every day really formulated into the process of being consistent, putting in the work, you know, not necessarily not taking no days off, but really being focused on accomplishing whatever goal that you have. So do you do you study seven days a week then? Pretty much. Yeah, right now. Yeah, I'm learning something brand new. I have no experience with the clouds. So, all of this is new to me. So, I'm in I'm in there every day. So, you must not have kids and a family. Is that right? Four kids. Four kids. Yeah. So, how do you manage that? Cuz that is a you know a lot of people give me this feedback. David, I got kids. They they they need a lot of attention. How give us your tips, Dan. How do you manage that? Like a family, four children and you know work work plus studying every day. How did you how do you manage that? Man, I'm blessed, man. You know, my wife, she's a huge part of where I am today because in 2013, we had my son, which is our third child. At that time, she was working and I wasn't making nowhere near where I was today. Her her check from where she was working was basically playing for daycare for the two kids. And I'm like, you know what? I'm working on my CCNA. The house is just chaotic. Everybody's stressed. I'm like, I don't think he should work. Yeah. I think he should just take this off and I I'll figure out the rest. And so I end up working two jobs, you know, so we could get caught up and everything, put some money in the bank. I'm working two full-time jobs. I did that for about four months. And then once I finished that job, that's when I really decided to buckle down on the CCNA. Got my CCNA in what, 2015? Yeah, about 2015 I got my CCNA. Yeah, it just everything just kind of started lining up and she hasn't worked since because I we you know we manage our we manage our finances. It allows us to have a balance in our home when she focuses on the kids and everything. If she needs some help, I help. But other than that, you know, I'm focusing on the studying because, you know, I got to provide for the family. I ain't got no choice, you know. No, exactly. But I mean give us some give us some tips because you know people work a job they come home they're dead tired and it's hard to study then. So do you do you wake up early give us your routine and you know any tools like are there is there software are there books you know what what helps you you know manage this because to to to study four hours a day is is it's a it's a big chunk of the day. How on earth do you do that? The first first thing I had to figure out with studying is the most efficient time that I learn. Yeah. So for me it's in the morning. So I wake up on early in the morning whether it be at 4:30, 5, 6:00, and then I'll study as much as I can before work. Um now I'm I'm blessed to have be able to schedule meetings at 9 or whatever and then I'll study up until that point. And if I can't do that, if I have something going on in the morning, then I may find time throughout my day, put it on my calendar. And if I can't do it during that time, then at night when I get home, I try to get it in at least by 8 o'clock and then I'll study for at least two hours. So that's pretty much how I balance it, you know, between scheduling my kids events throughout the week. I do all that pre-in events. Me and my wife talk about the schedule like in advance for that week. And everything is just pretty much on my calendar. If it's not on my calendar, it pro it's probably not important. And so I'm really focused on, you know, my goals, what I need to learn, what I need to do, and doing that. So you manage to study four hours a day every day. Is that is that is that is that kind of what you four hours? It's not consistent four hours. I'm not going to lie about that, but it's at least 30 minutes to an hour on something, learning something new, studying something that I've been working on trying to figure out. It's consistent on that. And be before I tell this, I I read something that 70% of the people that graduate where I'm from like can't read. And I was one of those people. Oh wow. Okay. You couldn't read when you graduated. Is that right? From school. I could barely I could barely read. Like I would just glance over the things that I understood. But I really had to focus. Like even today, my reading habits aren't as strong as they should be. I mean, I struggle with it. And so one of the reasons I study so much is because I have to work so hard to understand something like this isn't easy for me and I don't want anybody to think that it is easy. Like I just understand that okay if I do this enough times it'll start making sense you know because I'm a visual learner but I'm also a kinetic understander. You know what I mean? Like I can see some excuse me I can see something and learn it but I won't understand it until I do it. I I love that you couldn't read properly when you got out of school, but you're in an industry where you have to read all the time and study all the time. And I mean, you've proven that you can do it. I mean, that's that's fantastic. What would you say to someone who's struggling, you know, to read or or um you know, didn't get a great education? What would you say to that person? Continue learning. Work at it. There there's channels on YouTube that will help you with your pronunciation of words. There's books out there that will help you with reading better. And just doing it every day will help you read. If it's a word you don't understand, you can ask Siri or you can ask Alexa or my bad or you could Google it. You know what I mean? There's so many different ways to help you learn. That's why I say we're in the best time ever to be in tech because whatever your limitation is, there's some way to help you move forward. Doran, I just want to like sidestep slightly. you mentioned a book in one of your very new um videos and you said this book really helped you. So can you talk about that book and talk about any other stuff that you know mindset stuff because I think when when we spoke in the past and stuff I've heard from you when you was on the help desk you were like stuck and a lot of people could be stuck there. Um and sometimes you need to just change your paradigm or your way of thinking um you know to realize you can break out of that if you like and do a lot more. So, long- winded question, but you know, what books have helped you and and you know, what in your mindset changed so that you you are where you are today? Cuz that's quite a you know, it's it's a it's a big jump. You were stuck there for what was it 7 years? Um 6 years. And then you you suddenly like your career launched. Yeah. There's like several books that really helped me. If I had to dig deep on the books that helped, I would say how to win friends and influence people. That helped me a lot with relationships and being in business and just how to operate in a customer service environment. You know, you really need to know how to communicate with people, how to be effective in your communication. The second thing book that helped me was The Alchemist. Yeah. Just the story of the journey. Like that really helped me. The other book is the one thing by Gary Keller. I read that this year because often times in tech, we'll hear about the latest and great greatest thing that we need to learn. We'll have so many distractions and tasks we need to work on, but it's really focused. It's really important to stay on on track to really focus and hone in on that one thing that you want to be successful in. And for me right now, that's cloud and specifically the cloud networking. That helped me to say, "Okay, I don't really need to focus on this anymore. I don't really need to focus on this anymore. Let's focus on this. get good at that and then get a little bit wider on the information that I want to learn. I mean, I think that's so true. I mean, the problem is like there's so many things like learn this, learn this, learn this, learn this, and eventually you learn nothing cuz you you're totally distracted. I saw you had a book in one of your videos, Deep Work. It's a book that I think is brilliant. So, um Oh, there it is. Sorry. So, Deep Work, um did that help you change your mindset about studying and stuff? And so, talk around that. You know what? I before the one thing I read deep work. Yeah. and deep work really really helped me to understand my own internal learning, my own internal focus, my own reason to know that you know what social media although I want to help people I'm one person and if I can't help myself how can I help anybody else and so I had to say okay if I'm going to be on social media it's going to have to be at certain times when I want it and not you know with all the distractions around me filtering those out you know or setting up some automated system to point people in the right direction and really focusing on my own time and valuing that and being on track. So, do you are you like of them of the of the way of thinking where you turn off your phone or you put it in another room during that study period or you know how do you avoid these distractions? Yeah, my phone is either off or it's in another room. And then do you study? Some people find it really distracting to study on a computer because, you know, YouTube's right there, you know, everything's just at your fingertips. Do you study with books or do you study online and do you have applications that like lock your computer down? It's if someone's struggling, you know, to to buckle down and study, what, you know, what kind of tips would you give them? You know what? That's the one thing I used to love about learning network engineering is the fact that I could disconnect from the internet and just turn on my routers and switches and lab. Right. Yeah. But now everything pretty much you have to be connected. So I just don't open up the browser to the sites that I know are distraction. I don't have a Discord. I don't have um any type of instant messaging on my computer. So when I if I'm not on the website, it's not going to contact me. Yeah, I'm I'm I'm very much the same as you. The deep workbook crystallized a lot of the way I was thinking is um you turn off all distractions. I I permanently have my phone on do not disturb. I permanently have do not disturb on my computers. It's it's frustrating for other people sometimes, especially for my wife. But um you know I when you when you're studying or when you're working and you want to produce um you have to turn off those distractions and I'm the same boat as you. I'd highly recommend Deep Work as a book if you're struggling. Um this whole concept that you must turn things off and if you want to produce something you need to you know take yourself away. Um your social media can be great but I like what you said you you just do it for a period of time. So you schedule your social media type thing. Is that right? Yes. Correct. But I mean, social media can be an addiction, can't it? I mean, it it's really distracting, that phone. So, you literally just turn it off or put it in another room and then focus on what you're doing. Yeah. Yeah. Social media is not a distraction for me. I've learned to combat it. Like, I when when I'm on social media, I'm I'm I'm pouring I'm pouring out the things that I've learned or I'm pouring out into somebody else. But like, I don't scroll on my timeline. I don't watch YouTube videos really. I don't really listen to podcasts. like if I'm doing it, it's intentional. You know what I mean? Like because I understand how easy it is to not only get distracted, but to have to see something that kind of takes your mind in a direction that has you off balance for like hours or a whole day, you know, especially with the things that are going on in the world. Like my heart goes out to so many people and I do my best to help whether it's by giving money or giving time. But to see things on social media, most times people got to tell me about things in order for me to know about it. I love that word. You're intentional. So you're very intentional about what you're doing on social media. You're very intentional about what what you you're trying to do. So what about goal setting? Do you do you do you do that kind of thing? How do you like say, "Okay, this is what I want to do because, you know, it's okay to put time aside every day to do something, but you got to have some kind of plan, I'm assuming." Yeah. You know, um, going back to the book, the one thing Yeah. I used to be the type of person that creates a list. All right, I got 10 things that I want to do today and I may do three or I may do one, you know, once a day is done. But I realize that cleaning up my office or the sending out emails or something, all that is great, but is it really having the impact that you want? You know what I mean? Cuz we can create a list and do a whole lot, but it's not achieving that one thing that we really know we want to do. And so now I'm intentional about waking up and ensuring that the one thing that I do today is working towards my one goal or that one thing that I want to accomplish. And right now it's getting up to speed in my current role. So everything that I do, everything that I learn has to be going in that direction otherwise it's not important. So I haven't read the book. So can you give us like a quick uh you know synopsis if you like or quick overview of what it is from what you're telling me? It's this whole idea that you must choose the one big thing and and focus on that. Is that kind of what it what it's about? Yeah, it's it's pretty much that and the one big thing is pretty much accomplishment of small things. All of the little things that you do every day, lab every day, it's going to achieve you towards that certification. You know, you may not enjoy learning BGP, but it'll help you in your job ro you know. So that one thing that you focus on, it's it everything has to be lined up in that direction in order for you to accomplish that one thing that you want to accomplish. So in other words, you're focusing like the one thing now is to get as certified as you can or get as much knowledge as you can in the cloud so you can be more valuable in your job. So that's kind of your one thing at the moment. Whereas like a few years ago your one thing was to get the CCNA. Is that is that kind of right? That's pretty much it. Yep. Cuz I want to, you know, get to where I want to be in my knowledge so I can give as much value to the community. That's what I want to do. So I mean like I like this. So in other words, is social media helping me take me to that goal? If it's not, then I'll put it to the side. Is this book or is this television program helping me get closer to that one thing? If it's not, then I'll put it aside. Is that kind of the way of thinking? That's the way of thinking. You've convinced me to buy the book, so I'm going to buy that today. So, no, I'm not trying to convince you to buy the book. No, no, no, no. But you know what it is, Dwan? It's um in in life, it's it's so nice when a friend of yours or someone that you know in the in the industry or someone that you respect recommends a book. Um there's been a few books in my life like um deep work when I saw it on your bookshelf is like oh that's a great book cuz I read that book. There's been other books that I've read like the 4-hour work week that that really changed my perspective and you know Tim Ferrris had that kind of thing about like focusing on you know the where you want to go. Um he took a lot of like other stuff and like kind of crystallized it and put it in a nice format. For me that was a was a life-changing book. Um deep work was a great book. So this one thing book is is the next one that I'm I'm going to buy because and like uh atomic habits for me was another one like um getting you know getting small habits in life. So like I like what you said your goal is is not to force yourself to do 10 things. It's just to do one thing. I mean that's much easier. Um so you do these small little habits and you ingrain it in yourself. And like what you've said which which kind of like to me is is the atomic habits thing is you have are in the habit today of every day studying and when you do that it becomes easier doesn't it because you every day you know that you're going to have to do some work. So let's talk about books. We're getting philosophical but I I want to ask you some other questions but it's so important because you know books can really change your life. Um are there any other books like Atomic Habits you were nodding your head so you've you you agree that's a good book. Tim Ferrris's 4-hour work week, um, the one thing and deep work. Are there any other books that you found really, you know, life-changing or beneficial? So, you mentioned Atomic Habits. I read all the books that you mentioned. The Tim Ferris 4hour work week with the automating like your emails and all of that. Like, I love that and I think everybody should put automation into their workflows however they can, whether it be automated ticketing systems. Cuz when when I was a network engineer, the first thing that I would do is figure out the process of opening tickets and closing tickets and then it's automate as much as possible creating templates. Like you should do that like ASAP if you're not doing that. The other book, Atomic Habits, great book. But I read um the power of the habit I think it's called. Yeah. By Charles Dwig. And that really helped me understand my subconscious mind on the habits that I do without even knowing it. That's distracting me from where I want to go. You know what I mean? And so that book was like really helpful and kind of it was to me more impactful than Atomic Habits. But Atomic Habits is still good. I just because it went to the subconscious level of habits. So we've got like I think we've got four five books now. Are those like your top five books that you'd recommend people read? Yeah. Any other books? The the next book is is a simple read. It's James Allen as a man thinking. I read that back in 2015 after I read How to Win Friends and How to Influence People. And I want to wrap this up, Dan. Like we we spoke about like the one thing. So what's the one thing the best advice you can give you would give yourself? I mean, you've given a bunch of things there, but if there was one thing you could say to yourself if you were younger, what would that be? The one thing that I would tell myself if I was younger, this just could be the mindset that I have now, is financial security. Don't be, and I think it all goes down to not being distracted. Yeah. You know, because people will tell you what you need to buy. People will tell you what you need to learn. People will tell you what you need to do. Yeah. But if you have your own plan, your own goals, your own vision, focus on that and eliminate the distractions. And that would get you to financial security. Is that what you're saying? Yeah. Yes. Everybody that I know that are financially secure, they don't buy a lot of things. They don't do a lot of things. They don't move when other people went on the move. So you you drive a Ferrari. Is that right? Whenever you give me the keys. I love that. I mean, it's like um you know, focus what's on important what what's important and don't you said it earlier. So I want to talk about financial advice. What's your financial advice? Like you said, you know, don't spend a lot of money. Do you have any tips? You know, what advice would you give to someone to become financially secure? Live within your means. I mean, that's the first thing I think a lot of us, you know, and I hate to say it, but education in the black community isn't just about literacy of books and math, but it's also financial literacy. Yeah. They don't teach us, okay, about the outcomes of getting student loans. Yeah. You know what I mean? There's other ways to be successful than going to college. Certifications is one of those avenues. Learning the code is another one. You know, there's so many different ways to get to where you want to go other than being in debt. Sometimes you have to go in debt, but if you're intentional about where you want to go and this is a requirement, I mean, that's what you got to do. It's funny. I mean, I don't want to get onto the high horse about it, but it's amazing about like the US, how that college debt thing is is is like a burden around you till you die. You can't get out of it. Um, and I mean, in my personal experience, I remember doing some university courses and it was just a waste of money because in my that's just for me and this is not advice for everyone. This is just in my experience. I learned a lot more just by buying a book and like watching courses like online free stuff or on Udemy or whatever from that specific topic that I was learning that was Python actually. So I remember I did some university courses to try and I saw this trend where Python was and automation was taking over and I thought oh I'll get a degree at the same time and it'll help me and man that was a waste of time. What I found was much better was to I created the Python for network engineers course because I didn't see I couldn't find something and I went and did a university course but they were teaching stuff that was irrelevant to to networking. So I mean and I just want to say this you know for both of us we're not advising you not to go to university but think carefully about it I think is the advice. Is that right? So I got a a couple viewpoints on this. Yeah. If you decide to go to college be efficient in how you going to go to college. Get as many grants as you can. You don't have to go to the most expensive college unless you know you're trying to be a lawyer and you have a scholarship or something, get scholarships. But a lot of times when it comes to getting in tech, there's other ways to get in like in tech. When I started there was no Udemy, there was no like online courses. So college was a major option, but now there's other options, you know? So really take into account, okay, what do you want to do in tech? What is the requirements? Can college teach you this? How long does it take? Because if it takes you four years, technology could change in four years. Exactly. Like the way the way tech is the speed and the rate that tech's moving, college just isn't always the best option. I think you know it's um if you can if if you've got the money to do it or who's paying, that's the big thing. Who's paying? If if mom and dad are paying and they want you to go, then that's okay. But if you have to take out loans and stuff and that's going to be a weight around your neck for the rest of your life, that's a that's a big decision. Um, yeah, I'm I'm very much in that same camp. Um, you know, if you can do it the the the more cost effective way, like do a Udemy course or just look at YouTube videos, that makes sense. And I think what I love about Udemy, um, Dwan, and about um, you know, the way the world's going is, you know, $1,000 in the US isn't the same as $1,000 in other parts of the world. in in America, you could pay $10 for a coffee. In other parts of the world, that's crazy money. And I love the way that the world has changed now where education is becoming more accessible to more people. And I agree with you in tech depends what you want to do obviously, but in tech, you don't need to necessarily go and do a fancy degree to do well in tech. And I see that like with networking, what opened the doors for me to come to the UK from South Africa was my CCE. It wasn't my degree. My degree is not even kind of recognized here at all. Uh so that was great. And you know a CCIE or a Cisco s is is the same around the world. It doesn't matter where you go whereas like a degree in South Africa doesn't have the same weight as a degree in in Oxford or Cambridge or something. So yeah I'm I'm in my that's my personal experience. I found that CS um and just putting work out there like you did YouTube. It'd be interesting to hear how that helped you. Did did putting your work out there and putting your name your face out there open doors for you? Yes it did. Um, I think the video specifically CCNA changed my life. Just telling my story. Yeah. You know, resonated with a lot of people. Being on the help desk is a start that most people in tech get. You know, they start there and they understand the grind of being on the help desk. You know what I mean? And then advancing off the help desk, it it doesn't come easy. You know, once you get in that position, you got to learn that job. And then you got to learn new skills to get above that job. Because often times, you know, you're siloed and the skill set that you have only is going to set you up for another help desk job. So, you got to figure out how to, you know, advance from there. The um the springboard for you was CCNA, wasn't it? Yeah, that was that was springboard. Spring CCNA, CCNP, learning Python, getting my associates degree helped as well. And um I got a DevOps foundations certification to help me understand DevOps. So the so you did have a degree and or you did agree a degree and that opened some doors as well and got you into got got you into some positions. Is that right? Yeah. I got a $7,000 associates degree. And and now you and now are you paying for that? The pain of it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So if you went back, would you would you do it again or would you have skipped that part? That's tough. It is. Yeah. That's tough. You know, I got into Serner. Serner had a requirement that you can't work for without a degree, right? Yeah. And that's was my first well that was a senior network engineer job and I like I said it took me 10 years to get in there and without my degree I would have got in. Yeah. It's interesting. I mean I mean I'm really glad to see that like companies like Google or and others are dropping this requirement for a degree because um and I mean this this has been hashed around many many times and I mean we're just giving another take on it but you know degree I it's funny I look at some positions that are advertised and they first thing they want is like a bachelor's degree and whatever and I think I I don't qualify for that job even though I've got like how many years of experience. So I it'll let's hope the industry changes because um you know in certain in certain fields the degree you know might not be necessary. So, let's talk a bit more about the journey. There was you put out a video and I must mention that you have your own YouTube channel and you're big on social media. Your handle is lab every day. So, I'll put all your links below for anyone who wants to follow you. But you made this video like how CCNA changed your life. So, I want to try and like get the details from you. How did cuz I mean it's changed again recently, but how did CCNA you know change things for you? When I got out to military, you know, you go to the military. If you happen to get a job in tech, which I was a system admin, net app, network admin, I did all that. I figured when I got out, I had a top secret clearance. I would get into a government job or find something good in the private sector. Well, that wasn't the case. I actually struggled for months to find a job. Once I landed a job, I was on the help desk. And so during that time, you know, I really liked it. it was about 2,000 building 2,000 employees in the company. So I had a large role of responsibility and so during that time it was great but as time went on I wanted more but I think I went over 100 interviews in that six year time span of being told no for jobs. Right. Yeah. And part of that was because I didn't take my career serious as far as continuing my education, continuing to get certifications and doing the things that it takes to be successful in tech. I knew I was good at, you know, working with people. I knew I was good at the job that I was doing, but in order to get the job you want, you have to do more. I decided to go to a boot camp. The guy that I was working with, he was um he came in, he had all these certifications and he was really passionate about tech and he kind of inspired me to look into it. And so once I looked into that, that's when I realized, you know what, I've always been um passionate about networking. I think I want to be a network engineer and the CCNA is what I want to go after. And so once I got that certification, that's when everything in my life changed. My resume started to um get me call backs and then I would go into an interview and actually know what I'm talking about as far as networking and it really helped me, you know, make that step forward. Dwan, was it the CCNA that you know got you to change your mindset about your career? Um, and if so, what was it? I mean, I understand that CCNA opens up a lot of doors for people, but how did you suddenly decide to become or go and do CCNA and how did it change, you know, your mindset and other things? Yeah, it was a couple things. Um, when I was in the Air Force, there was a guy named Pat. This was back in 2001. And Pat, he was like the go-to person in our shop, you know, he knew everything. At the time, we were going from Windows NT to Windows 2000 and he was heading that same migration and just really smart. But he ended up getting his CCNA and then getting out of the military. And I was like, wow. One certification, he was able to get an offer from a company that was so impactful that he decided to get out the military. And so that always kind of just stuck in the back of my mind. throughout my career. And so fast forward to 2013, I had one of my best friends who was Ka. He was telling me he was getting out of the military and he had just got his CCNP. And so at that time, I didn't know anybody else black that had a CCNA, let alone a CCMP. Yeah. And so once he, you know, shared his journey with me, that inspired me to believe that I could do it. And so while I was in that boot camp, that's when I really was like, "Okay, I'm gonna get this CCNA." And then through that journey, that process of the focus that it takes to get the CCNA, it kind of shifted my whole outlook on what it takes to be successful in tech. Tell us about like what you're doing now because when I met you at Cisco Live, you were like me very much into networking. you I think you had a network job like a proper I how do you say traditional network job but then you moved into like I think it was DevNet and tell us about what happened what's happened recently. Yeah, it's like a progression. So I think I was on your your channel um in 2018 and I had got my first network engineering role. Then I seen you in 2019 at Cisco Live and I had got my first senior network engineering role and now um I'm a senior cloud networking developer advocate at AWS. Yeah, it's been a real progress and my focus specifically like I mentioned before is in cloud networking. You got you got to tell me well what's that what's that title again and what does it actually um encompass because when when we were setting this up you're not like a cloud engineer like I would typically see it. I believe. Um, so can you give us the title again and and kind of like what do you do? So my title specifically is a senior cloud networking developer advocate. What I do is I help engineers and developers and organizations learn and um be successful in cloud networking on AWS. Like it it's fun. You think about network engineering, right? And all the pain points that we face as network engineers. I get to help network engineers remove those pain points. Like for me, that's the best of both worlds to be able to learn some of the latest technologies and then share with people, talk about it in video formats at at different talks and events and then like come on your your podcast and your your YouTube channel and talk about tech. Like I love what I do. It's amazing. It's great, isn't it? I mean it's um especially you've got a passion for this stuff. So you've got the title networking and developer. So are you bridging those two sort of domains if you like? It's it's yes it's kind of bridging those two. But when you think about where network engineering is going, we're automating a lot more. Yeah. You know, the infrastructure in the cloud is all APIs when you think about it. You know, you communicate everything on AWS is pretty much an ABI talking to another API. We're designing our infrastructures in code. Infrastructure is code. So you're building out a template and you're pushing out with Terraform or cloud formation to to the cloud to build out your infrastructure. So it's really changing. It's evolving and I love it. So tell me I mean how did you make the move or let let's step back if I want to get into into doing what you're doing what would you advise like which searchs how does a traditional like network engineer become like you a lot of networking people are you know worried that networking is dead so I get these messages all the time you know I don't it's not not worth getting a CCNA because networking is dead you know what what would you say I think networking is alive more than ever um cuz at the core core and the foundation of everything we do even right now is the OSI model layer 7 in order for you to watch this video you have to get to the application layer and you as a network engineer if you don't understand that at the foundation of source destination the ports that are being communicated on the network how are you going to move into another position as a cloud engineer or make the pivot to a developer because some of the best developers actually understand networking that's interesting so which um I I saw some in you put out some information about which searchs did you get or which searchs are you working on to help you with this you know sort of transition if you like from a traditional network engineer to um to cloud for me it wasn't specifically about the searchs it was more so about um the skill set and so what I mean by that is like I mentioned getting a strong foundation in networking understanding TCP UDP the OSI model BGP DNS DHCP all of that and then building on that skill set to learn let's say Python some coding and then applying it in the workplace that's what really helped me being a part of some projects and then learning DevOps as well being a part of a pipeline managing that pipeline pushing out code building out tools and it got me to where I am today I think the I agree you know it's it's skills that you need to build but I I like just because they give