How to Avoid Money Traps & Get What You Want in Life | Tim Ferriss

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Well, have you guys read that um, I think Bloomberg has this great article where they had high ultra high net worth bankers survey their clients and it was fairly consistent at $50,000 in net worth all the way up to $50 million in net worth. The answer to when do you think you're going to have enough was almost consistently always two times more than what they currently have. >> [laughter] >> So, if you have 50,000, you think, "When I have 100, I'm going to be able to breathe. I have a million, when I have two, I can breathe." Uh >> Yeah, so when I had heard that, I I was like, "Yeah, that makes sense, relatable. Uh I've been there and I could see that." But it would also left me defeated like, "Okay, so then what? Is there Is there simply no answer? Is that the right answer?" And I think what Tim is saying is kind of where I've landed, which is for most people it's an imagination problem. They haven't spent the time to think about what else they want in life and therefore, they just move the goal post a little further on the on the money game or the the success game that they are super familiar with. And so, it's not even a question of hitting a benchmark. It's simply like you have you have not put sufficient resources into thinking about the other things that will give you that same sense of purpose, of progress, of a of achievement, of fulfillment, you know, in other words. >> Sean, do you use? Because like I I mean I I struggle with that where I'm like, "Well, I don't know what to do. I've been doing this this is >> I've got one. I've got one. >> Okay. >> That's maybe a little less visible which is the the social traps involved with making more money. And here's what I mean by that. As people make more money, sometimes they end up hanging out with people who have more money. And a lot of humans, if they have enough wherewithal to make like a hundred grand a year, they want to make two hundred grand a year. Now they start hanging out with people who make 250 a year. Okay? And now those people have new toys, new goals, more ambitious fill in the blank, and becomes this social relative wealth {slash} competition. And I've seen this over and over again. Then people kind of trade up again in a sense. They start spending more and more time in wealthier circles, and now people are comparing which jets they have. And oh, really? You have that place in fill in the blank state? Oh, yeah. Well, if you were interested, right? I think there might be one lot left at the Yellowstone Club or fill in the blank, right? And there's a there's a social risk of having people who are at your level of wealth or above. Because the natural inclination is going to be to roll uphill. >> [snorts] >> And for that reason, I try to spend a lot of time around people and with people, not just old friends. Because some people are like, hey, where I grew up, it's like we diverged so so far in our paths. I don't have those friendships anymore. That's fine. But spending time with like some of the world's best fill in the blank, right? Archers, swimmers, uh super high-level piano players who make next to no money, but who you can respect really, really, really deeply, who are fun to spend time with, who seem to have in many instances great lives, and are more content than the rich people who are chasing the next the next phantom, whatever that happens to be. Uh and there are well-adjusted, awesome people with wealth who don't suffer from this keeping up with the Joneses, but they are actually very few in my experience. So, the social piece is really important. Like, who are you spending time with? And if they're all at your level of of income, net worth, or higher, the very natural, evolved instinct is, I think, going to be to roll uphill into more a more more expensive and money dependent path. >> Yeah. What's your answer to that, Sean? That do you have a framework or or or anything to say about it? >> first was kind of the wake-up call, right? Like uh I would say like beginning a career, 20s, it's I I I don't even have the ability to get what I want, regardless of what I wanted. I didn't have the skills. I was too feeble. I was too passive. I was too uh dumb. I was too unskilled. I didn't have the you know the the hustle. I didn't have the marketing chops. I didn't know how to get even what I wanted. So, the first part of my career was just to actually figure out how to even get what you want. And I started with a very simple want, which is like I want to be successful. I want to make money. I want to be financially independent, right? And I looked around and I saw that okay, most people most people are uh you know on a bit of a financial treadmill. They're never going to make enough where they can be financially free to have total freedom to choose what they want. Um and they seem to be dreading going to work. They didn't seem to be enjoying the thing they were doing either now. So, they couldn't get out and they didn't like where they were. Uh then you saw you know a few people made a lot of money, but they didn't really like the way that they had to make the money. These are the bankers, the consultants, and the people who were you know they were maybe traveling a lot. Maybe it was low creativity type of jobs, but hey paid paid really well. And then there was the lucky few who seemed to have both, right? It's like they were making gobs of money doing creative work that they loved, and they forgot what day of the week it was cuz they were just so excited to get get it get up and do their projects. And I just was like, okay, cool. That's kind of the first thing I That's the first thing to want. Then when I when I got to that point, then I realized and looked around me, you, and a bunch of our mutual friends, Sam, like you realize that some people never re- never went back and asked the question, "What do I want now?" So, that maybe that was the right thing to want when I was 20 or is it my best idea then? But when I was 20, 30 that wasn't the best idea anymore of what to want. And we have a bunch of friends, not going to name names, but like they just keep putting points up on the scoreboard. They've already earned the last dollar they will ever spend in their life. And so now they're trading great hours for useless dollars, which is like such a wake-up call of bad trade to make. Um and you know, at least I have fun doing it and they do feel like a sense of, you know, power and autonomy and, you know, creativity making it happen, but it became pretty clear that once you have the power to get whatever it is that you want, right? Or you you believe in yourself to be able to make it happen, then the then the priority shifts to wanting to write [ __ ] You know, what do you what do you actually want? And you know, I looked at myself and I was like, "Cool, my bank account got fat, but then so did I. So this is a new thing to want. I want to I want to not be embarrassed at how I look. I want to feel proud of myself for, you know, having self-control and like break some of these terrible habits that are going to cut my life short and, you know, make me sort of, you know, immobile you know, as the older I get. And so that became a thing to want. And then why did I pick the piano this year? Because I was like, I don't know. What are the What are the real joys that make me happy? I love playing basketball. I love sport. The other I think thing that like people really can get lost in and like get into a flow state and just truly enjoy themselves is music. And like one is either either I'm going to go to a bunch of concerts, but I got three little kids. It's probably not in the cards for me to go on tour and go go to a bunch of festivals this year. But what if I played music? What if I made a little dad garage band? That seems like fun. And and I stole the word from Tim on this. He I think was talking to Balaji and he said, he called him post-economic. And I don't know if Tim I don't think he would ever use that before. At least I hadn't heard anyone use that before. >> Did you make that up? >> No, I didn't make it up. I heard it from somebody in Silicon Valley. >> Uh we we totally So we stole it from you and sort of >> [laughter] >> almost like as a joke. It's like it's just like a cool It's like people who are instead of being, you know, investors, they're capital allocators or like, you know, the aioli versus mayo. So I was like, "Oh, post-economic is a great way to say I'm rich." >> We had a an MFM t-shirt that said post-economic. >> [laughter] >> It's so so then I was like, "Well, what does that actually mean?" What what the definition of it is isn't that you have all the money you ever want. It's that you no longer need to make decisions based on money as the primary like motivator, which is how I had made a lot of decisions. So, Sam, to answer your question, I think it's all of that getting to the point of realizing that the most important question now is what are the right things to want. Realizing that the decider of what to want isn't money anymore. It may Maybe that was right when I was in my 20s, maybe it was wrong, but at least it's no longer needs to be the case. And now, pick a new word. Mine is fun. So, I want to do the things that I enjoy in the act of doing them. Um not like doing them for some future payoff. Uh and I I told you this uh you know, piano's a great example of this cuz I thought, "Oh, man, it's so cool to be able to play this song." And I realized nobody gives a [ __ ] if you could play the piano. Like, if anyone could play the piano, they just They sort of nod, like, "Oh, you can play the piano, cool." They've moved on. They don't want to sit there and listen to a 7-minute, you know, Beethoven's, you know, second minuet. Like, they don't care about that any of that. So, you literally can't show it off even if you wanted to. It's only fun because it's really fun to play. Um and it's a great like you know to pick things that are in that category. The other thing, Sam, the other trick is writing it out. So, like, I think when you write you you force a level of honesty in yourself if you do it right. If you write something that doesn't feel true, it stands out to you as soon as you said it, uh as soon as you put it down on paper, and then you can, you know, sort of edit that. And I find that most people do not edit their thoughts very much. All right? They They're only the author. They're rarely the editor. And I sort of just take most of the things I think and do as first drafts that need a really great editor to come back in and try to make this good. And so, I try to edit it. Like, I have a post on Medium. I don't even use Medium anymore, but I wrote what I want out of life age 28. And I wrote like a stream of consciousness, a ramble. But then I write that like I kind of wrote that every year. Even in in the post I wrote I want to rewrite this every year so I can see myself evolving and figuring out what I actually want out of life, right? Like, I think being intentional in that way has helped. >> Trade a great hour for useless dollars. That's great. That's cool. >> Yeah, and Tim, you said this on the last pod. You go, I've been around I've met enough wealthy people to know it's like food. You know, you could be starving, you can eat you can eat till you're full, you can eat till you're stuffed, you can eat till you make yourself sick. And you know, it's not money isn't the answer and it's sort of obvious that you know, once you say it like that. >> Yeah, let me I'll just riff on that, too, cuz as as you were mentioning how you think about this and approach it, a couple things popped to mind. Just having seen I mean, dozens and probably 100 plus people go from not having money to having more money than they'll ever need. And also just seeing people do well. They don't have to be millionaires, but it's like they've they've done really well for themselves, right? They have enough. Is the the the first I would say is much like you hear it's the economy, stupid. Yeah, right? Duh, it's the economy, stupid. I think it's it's the relationship, stupid. Let me explain what I mean by that. If you want to be Everybody wants to be happy. That's a very ill-defined term oftentimes, but it's like spend try to spend your time around happy happy people. That's it. I mean, it sounds so dumb and obvious, but it's like took me a while to figure this out. It's like the most reliable way to make yourself happier, more upbeat is to spend time around default upbeat people. It's like it works all the time. And similarly, it's like if if you don't want to complain, don't like spend time around people who don't really complain, right? If you want to be around people if you want to make a lot of money, sure, you can spend time around people who make a lot of money, but those are often not the same people. And for me, like when I'm booking these trips every year, I'm blocking out time to be with those types of people because my default historically are like hyper-vigilant, super focused, obsessed with detail. I generally I would say like a lot of humans don't love the overwhelming uncertainty of the world. So, I like to exert control on something to feel like I have a total hold. And if I can't find anything else, probably going to be investing, making money, who knows, right? For lack of a better option. And so, blocking out that time where it's like it's the relationship, stupid. If you want to have a low conflict life, spend time around low conflict people. >> Have you because of your job and I mean we experience this but to a minor a bit but because of your job you're able to meet like you have the best fame which is you're still famous mainstream but the famous people, the cool people, the experts like you. They they love you which is really neat. Who would you put in like the top three of like your best buddies that are from your podcast? >> Ooh, good question. Uh Well, I mean just because it's top of mind, Alon Lee. Honestly, we've become super close. And that is hard for me as an adult. I've also been very I've always been very guarded and slow to trust. So, even when I was in college, I didn't make a lot of friends. I mean, I was very hesitant. So, the fact that we gelled so well >> [snorts] >> and have become really close is just awesome because I I I if you had asked me like you could think you're going to make any super close friends, right? If you had a parking lot of 20 spots of your absolute closest friends in the world, is anyone new going to potentially take one of those spots? I'd be like absolutely no way. No way. >> So, Alon was on the our pod probably six months ago. So, if you're listening to this, go back and listen to Alon. He's the man. >> He's awesome. So, he would be one. Uh I would say there are a lot of friends with whom I've just deepened relationships and the podcast has been a pretext to just hang out, right? And like in person we'll have dinner the night before, hang out, do a podcast, but there's all of this social interaction around it. So, that's true for a lot of my friends. I mean, I will use the podcast just as a way >> [laughter] >> to ensure that two busy friends actually remain friends. >> Who's on your list? >> Oh, there's so many. I mean, Josh Waitzkin would be one. People don't know who he is, they should check him out. Uh absolute masterclass in just about every type of skill acquisition. Uh I mean, just the people who come to mind, like someone like a Scott Belsky, maybe like a you know, having Chase Jarvis, Kevin Rose doing the random show on a regular basis, which is this format where we just catch up. I mean, kind of like we're catching up right now, talking about what's new, what's going on, what's on our minds, new technology, whatever that we come across. So, doing that regularly with Kevin is like a a foundational way that we actually keep connected in real time, right? Cuz we can I mean, I probably text with Kevin every other day, but it's not the same. It is not the same as like sitting in person or even on video and having a real conversation long-form. It's not the same. So, I'd say I use the podcast for that. Trying to think of of some other folks. Uh I think Rick Rubin's first long-form podcast ever was on my podcast. We did it in his sauna at Shangri-La before it burned down in Malibu. And I had met him prior to that uh a bunch, but you know, we became pretty close. We're not in touch all the time, but like we're we're definitely friendly. Uh people like Laird Hamilton, the surfer, and Gabby Reece. I'm just thinking of Malibu now. >> [laughter] >> Uh And the list is really, really long. It's like if you look at the people who I initially met during the launch of the 4-Hour Workweek, I try and I mean, I'm borrowing from Naval Ravikant here, but it's like if you're not going to work with someone, I think he says for a lifetime, don't work with them for 5 minutes or something like that. And Naval I I would trust actually stick to that. Uh I think mine is is a little softer around the edges, but it's like if if you can't see yourself spending real time with someone for 5 years, doesn't have to be personal, but like professional, personal, or combination, like don't spend 5 hours with that person or 5 weeks with that person. And there going to be exceptions, of course, that you have to make just to make life work. Uh >> [snorts] >> but I really try to I really try to select my guests that way when possible.