Why AI evals are the hottest new skill for product builders | Hamel Husain & Shreya Shankar

Lenny's Podcast · Intermediate ·📰 AI News & Updates ·7mo ago
Hamel Husain and Shreya Shankar teach the world’s most popular course on AI evals and have trained over 2,000 PMs and engineers (including many teams at OpenAI and Anthropic). In this conversation, they demystify the process of developing effective evals, walk through real examples, and share practical techniques that’ll help you improve your AI product. *What you’ll learn:* 1. WTF evals are 2. Why they’ve become the most important new skill for AI product builders 3. A step-by-step walkthrough of how to create an effective eval 4. A deep dive into error analysis, open coding, and axial coding 5. Code-based evals vs. LLM-as-judge 6. The most common pitfalls and how to avoid them 7. Practical tips for implementing evals with minimal time investment (30 minutes per week after initial setup) 8. Insight into the debate between “vibes” and systematic evals *Brought to you by:* Fin—The #1 AI agent for customer service: https://fin.ai/lenny Dscout—The UX platform to capture insights at every stage: from ideation to production: https://www.dscout.com/ Mercury—The art of simplified finances: https://mercury.com/ *Transcript:* https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/why-ai-evals-are-the-hottest-new-skill *My biggest takeaways (for paid newsletter subscribers):* https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/i/173871171/my-biggest-takeaways-from-this-conversation *Where to find Shreya Shankar* • X: https://x.com/sh_reya • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/shrshnk/ • Website: https://www.sh-reya.com/ • Maven course: https://bit.ly/4myp27m *Where to find Hamel Husain* • X: https://x.com/HamelHusain • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/hamelhusain/ • Website: https://hamel.dev/ • Maven course: https://bit.ly/4myp27m *Where to find Lenny:* • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com • X: https://twitter.com/lennysan • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/ *In this episode, we cover:* (00:00) Introduction to Hamel and Shreya (04:57) What are evals? (09:56) Demo: Exam
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1 How to sell your ideas and rise within your company | Casey Winters, Eventbrite
How to sell your ideas and rise within your company | Casey Winters, Eventbrite
Lenny's Podcast
2 How to unlock your product leadership skills | Ken Norton, Ex-Google
How to unlock your product leadership skills | Ken Norton, Ex-Google
Lenny's Podcast
3 How to create a winning product strategy | Melissa Perri
How to create a winning product strategy | Melissa Perri
Lenny's Podcast
4 How to scrappily hire for, measure, and unlock growth | Crystal Widjaja, Gojek and Kumu
How to scrappily hire for, measure, and unlock growth | Crystal Widjaja, Gojek and Kumu
Lenny's Podcast
5 How to launch and grow your product | Ryan Hoover of Product Hunt and Weekend Fund
How to launch and grow your product | Ryan Hoover of Product Hunt and Weekend Fund
Lenny's Podcast
6 The rituals of great teams | Shishir Mehrotra, Coda, YouTube, Microsoft
The rituals of great teams | Shishir Mehrotra, Coda, YouTube, Microsoft
Lenny's Podcast
7 The art of building legendary brands | Arielle Jackson (Google, Square, First Round Capital)
The art of building legendary brands | Arielle Jackson (Google, Square, First Round Capital)
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8 The nature of product | Marty Cagan, Silicon Valley Product Group
The nature of product | Marty Cagan, Silicon Valley Product Group
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9 The art of product management | Shreyas Doshi (Stripe, Twitter, Google, Yahoo)
The art of product management | Shreyas Doshi (Stripe, Twitter, Google, Yahoo)
Lenny's Podcast
10 From a guy who's been in the game 20+ years, working with companies like eBay, HP, Netscape #shorts
From a guy who's been in the game 20+ years, working with companies like eBay, HP, Netscape #shorts
Lenny's Podcast
11 A pearl of an insight from Steve Jobs' "The Lost Interview" #Shorts
A pearl of an insight from Steve Jobs' "The Lost Interview" #Shorts
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12 Google thinks BIG #shorts
Google thinks BIG #shorts
Lenny's Podcast
13 Persuasive communication and managing up | Wes Kao (Maven, altMBA, Section4)
Persuasive communication and managing up | Wes Kao (Maven, altMBA, Section4)
Lenny's Podcast
14 Shishir Mehrotra is an ex-VP at Google and the CEO of Coda ($1b+ valuation) #shorts
Shishir Mehrotra is an ex-VP at Google and the CEO of Coda ($1b+ valuation) #shorts
Lenny's Podcast
15 Would you have expected this from a CEO? #shorts
Would you have expected this from a CEO? #shorts
Lenny's Podcast
16 Have you seen this "disease" before? #shorts
Have you seen this "disease" before? #shorts
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17 Arielle probably helped form some of the product one-liners that you know and love #shorts
Arielle probably helped form some of the product one-liners that you know and love #shorts
Lenny's Podcast
18 How well do you think this applies across startups, writing, and social situations? #shorts
How well do you think this applies across startups, writing, and social situations? #shorts
Lenny's Podcast
19 How to grow a subscription business | Yuriy Timen (Grammarly, Canva, Airtable)
How to grow a subscription business | Yuriy Timen (Grammarly, Canva, Airtable)
Lenny's Podcast
20 “You may not know everything that’s actually happening… but it will blow your mind” #shorts
“You may not know everything that’s actually happening… but it will blow your mind” #shorts
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21 A simple way to speed up a LOT of decisions #shorts
A simple way to speed up a LOT of decisions #shorts
Lenny's Podcast
22 When EVERY brick and mortar store has to sell online overnight, and you do online stores... #shorts
When EVERY brick and mortar store has to sell online overnight, and you do online stores... #shorts
Lenny's Podcast
23 The role of AI in new product development | Ryan J. Salva (VP of Product at GitHub)
The role of AI in new product development | Ryan J. Salva (VP of Product at GitHub)
Lenny's Podcast
24 You've been thinking about it a lot... but should you do it? #shorts
You've been thinking about it a lot... but should you do it? #shorts
Lenny's Podcast
25 Overcome imposter syndrome and accelerate your career | Julie Zhuo (Sundial, Facebook)
Overcome imposter syndrome and accelerate your career | Julie Zhuo (Sundial, Facebook)
Lenny's Podcast
26 Ryan led the incubation/launch of Github's Copilot #shorts
Ryan led the incubation/launch of Github's Copilot #shorts
Lenny's Podcast
27 He's talking about Brian Chesky throughout his response to the pandemic #shorts
He's talking about Brian Chesky throughout his response to the pandemic #shorts
Lenny's Podcast
28 And the technology will only get more powerful from here... #shorts
And the technology will only get more powerful from here... #shorts
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29 Anyone can do these! Julie is also the founder of Sundial #shorts
Anyone can do these! Julie is also the founder of Sundial #shorts
Lenny's Podcast
30 Julie's speaking from experience as an author on the topic, Facebook VP and now cofounder of Sundial
Julie's speaking from experience as an author on the topic, Facebook VP and now cofounder of Sundial
Lenny's Podcast
31 How to build a powerful marketing machine | Emily Kramer (Asana, Carta, MKT1)
How to build a powerful marketing machine | Emily Kramer (Asana, Carta, MKT1)
Lenny's Podcast
32 Sanchan was Head of Product @ Instagram from 2014-18 and he's now the VP of Product @ Coinbase
Sanchan was Head of Product @ Instagram from 2014-18 and he's now the VP of Product @ Coinbase
Lenny's Podcast
33 This is always a bit of a reality check #shorts
This is always a bit of a reality check #shorts
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34 Harvard Business Review has a great article on these & Shreyas went deep on them in the podcast
Harvard Business Review has a great article on these & Shreyas went deep on them in the podcast
Lenny's Podcast
35 Pause it and try yourself! It's harder in practice than you might think
Pause it and try yourself! It's harder in practice than you might think
Lenny's Podcast
36 Do you agree or disagree? #shorts
Do you agree or disagree? #shorts
Lenny's Podcast
37 Extremely clarifying for marketers and non-marketers alike #shorts
Extremely clarifying for marketers and non-marketers alike #shorts
Lenny's Podcast
38 Shishir is CEO and co-founder of Coda and a former VP of Product at Google #shorts
Shishir is CEO and co-founder of Coda and a former VP of Product at Google #shorts
Lenny's Podcast
39 When to invest in new acquisition channels | Adam Grenier (Uber, MasterClass)
When to invest in new acquisition channels | Adam Grenier (Uber, MasterClass)
Lenny's Podcast
40 So valuable to hear some insight into the actual signs of burnout versus just working hard
So valuable to hear some insight into the actual signs of burnout versus just working hard
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41 Adam was also a VP of Product and Marketing at LambdaSchool and a VP of Marketing at Masterclass
Adam was also a VP of Product and Marketing at LambdaSchool and a VP of Marketing at Masterclass
Lenny's Podcast
42 Adam said this is a very common challenge across the companies he advises
Adam said this is a very common challenge across the companies he advises
Lenny's Podcast
43 Building a meaningful career | Jason Shah (Airbnb, Amazon, Microsoft, Alchemy)
Building a meaningful career | Jason Shah (Airbnb, Amazon, Microsoft, Alchemy)
Lenny's Podcast
44 Jason Shah has led product teams at Amazon, Airbnb, Microsoft, and currently, Alchemy (web3)
Jason Shah has led product teams at Amazon, Airbnb, Microsoft, and currently, Alchemy (web3)
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45 Pause and try for yourself before he explains what he's looking for! #shorts
Pause and try for yourself before he explains what he's looking for! #shorts
Lenny's Podcast
46 Amazon is famous for "working backwards" but what does it actually mean? #shorts
Amazon is famous for "working backwards" but what does it actually mean? #shorts
Lenny's Podcast
47 Why product-led growth is the future | Elena Verna (Amplitude, Miro, Surveymonkey)
Why product-led growth is the future | Elena Verna (Amplitude, Miro, Surveymonkey)
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48 Free trials aren't just about converting YOU to a paying customer... #shorts
Free trials aren't just about converting YOU to a paying customer... #shorts
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49 What do you think the right balance is here? #shorts
What do you think the right balance is here? #shorts
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50 We hear about product-led sales all the time, but what does it actually mean? #shorts
We hear about product-led sales all the time, but what does it actually mean? #shorts
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51 "the only way you will ever have any chance of being product-led" #shorts
"the only way you will ever have any chance of being product-led" #shorts
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52 Common... and costly? #shorts
Common... and costly? #shorts
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53 The tables have been turned! #shorts
The tables have been turned! #shorts
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54 Ken said that interviews are as much you interviewing THEM as the other way around #shorts
Ken said that interviews are as much you interviewing THEM as the other way around #shorts
Lenny's Podcast
55 "I still care about people, but it's a redefinition of how that serves me" #shorts
"I still care about people, but it's a redefinition of how that serves me" #shorts
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56 Only OGs know this one... Adam brought it up when talking about the dangers of relying on 1 channel
Only OGs know this one... Adam brought it up when talking about the dangers of relying on 1 channel
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57 Is product a part of marketing or are they "joined at the hip"? #shorts
Is product a part of marketing or are they "joined at the hip"? #shorts
Lenny's Podcast
58 Fire insights #shorts
Fire insights #shorts
Lenny's Podcast
59 Customer-led growth | Georgiana Laudi (Forget The Funnel)
Customer-led growth | Georgiana Laudi (Forget The Funnel)
Lenny's Podcast
60 Using behavioral science to improve your product | Kristen Berman (Irrational Labs)
Using behavioral science to improve your product | Kristen Berman (Irrational Labs)
Lenny's Podcast

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