The Simple Coaching Habit That Changes How Teams Think

Key Takeaways

If you want to stop solving problems for your team, you need to start thinking and acting like a coach. You've probably heard that before. But how managers coach and how executive coaches coach are actually two different things. And today's guests are going to explain the ins and outs of being a coach as a manager. So by the end of the episode, you'll know how to support your team members to solve their own problems. Today's [music] guests are Laura Ashley Timms and Dominic Ashley Timms. They are the co-founders of Notion, a performance improvement consultancy established in 2000 that works globally with Fortune 500 and FTSE clients including NBC Universal, BT and Sainsbury. They are the creators of the STAR model and the multi-award winning STAR manager program used in over 40 countries. And they've also authored the management bestseller The Answer Is the Question, The Missing Superpower That Changes Everything and will transform your impact as a manager and leader, which was awarded Distinguished Favorite in the NYC Big Book Awards. Now, don't forget to hit that subscribe button. I share new episodes and other tips for managers every week. Now, here's the conversation. >> [music] >> Thank you both so much for joining me today. I am so excited to [music] talk about how managers can use some of the skills of coaching to [music] support their team members to be more independent thinkers and problem solvers. I feel like this is one of those things that managers have heard for a long time, but that we're doing it actually all wrong based on the research that you've done and the work you've done. And so I'm so excited to set the record straight and help managers actually employ these tools properly. So, welcome. >> Pleased to be here. Thanks for inviting us. >> Yeah, delighted. >> All right. I think we should start by just understanding what have we been doing wrong when we've been talking about managers as coaches? Cuz that's a concept that I've definitely talked about before. I know a lot of managers have heard about. So, what's the difference between the approach that you take and manager as coach concept? >> I I can kick off on that. I I I got to just uh pick you up on the premise that we've been doing things wrong. I don't think anyone's been intentionally doing anything wrong. Coaching, for anyone who's been involved with coaching or done any coaching skills course, I think we all like the idea of coaching very much indeed. And organizations were really keen to bring coaching into their organizations. The issue, I suppose, is that in in an effort to do that, they turned to the training market. And the only training that exists was the training to teach people to be an executive coach. So, they simply lifted that training up and brought it into their organization and re-badged it as manager as coach. Uh but in our work over the over the past 15 to 20 years, what we found is that whilst managers who've been through these coaching skills uh workshops and and these manager as coach programs really like the idea of coaching, the idea of being able to find the time and sit down to have a formal structured coaching conversation just doesn't fit within the day-to-day complexity of uh and the hurly-burly of a of a busy workplace. And so, whilst they have the best intentions, what we find is that those skills quickly become neglected simply because it's not been designed to fit in with the cut and thrust of work. So, the work we've really focused on is is thinking about, well, how how can we re- formulate those aspects of coaching which really aren't taught very well? And that's really focusing on the behavioral aspects, the mindset aspects, and building the confidence to know how when the to we can ask people a more intentional question which helps them to think. And so, it's about how do we help managers adopt those coaching-related behaviors that make a real difference? And that's really been the focus of our work and and and and a new approach that we call operational coaching. >> I the real insight we had as well is when we were doing this research and all of our work is that everything designed up to that point was designed for the benefit of the coachee, for the person the manager was coaching. And I guess what we wanted to do was come from the perspective of the manager themselves. If you're a line manager, if you're out in that busy workplace with 101 things to do, what can we do for you to help you adapt and change your behavior just in the flow of work. So I think we were very much coming to design something that supported the manager who have their own agenda versus just something that's all about the coachee and the other person. >> Yeah, I really appreciate the distinction between executive coaching and operational coaching, right? It is a totally different thing to have a carved out time to sit down and work through something with someone that's going to help them get better for their benefit and a totally different thing to be in the moment and use coaching tools to help someone do their job better, which also, as you're saying Laura, makes your job easier as a manager. Completely different mindset for how we approach coaching our team members. >> Yeah, and I think that if we if we've contributed anything to this space, I think it is that distinction between operational coaching, which we see as a management competence, you know, being able to use those coaching-related behaviors as a part of your management style versus then going on to train as an internal coach where you are now able to offer that more formal coaching support, which is a coaching skill as someone who's been trained to coach someone to support them in a particular initiative or goal that they have or support them on a project or new into role. And that's a very very different behavior and I think separating those two, I think has brought great clarity to this space. >> So why don't you walk us through the STAR method that you developed that does exactly that around the operational coaching. >> Absolutely. May maybe I'll do this. So, when we looked at it, we decided that if we're going to have a model that was going to really support the manager, then the first part of that model had to be reckon up to recognize how busy the managers were and how we need to actually shift our behavior as busy managers. So, the first half the model is all around that behavioral shift and then the second half of the model is all about actually upskilling our capability. So, if we start with that first half then, the first two parts of the STAR model is S is for stop and also to change state. So, that is when someone's walking to you or walks into your office or calls you on a phone or Zoom call or a Teams meeting and throws a challenge or a question or a problem at you. Our gut instinct as line managers and as people that want to help is to come from a good place and help them solve it. And we typically do that by telling them what to do, by answering their question. So, S is for stop is all about shifting that mindset and instead of answering the question is in that split second, bite our tongue and just to change state and think what do they really need from me right now and just to just to literally stop. So, we work very much in helping people change that habit immediately answering the question and solving it and taking on that work themselves often and just stopping. The second part of that behavioral shift is then to think, is this a coachable moment? Now, S and T, so stop and think, is something that can happen in a split second. We build in that habitual response to be different, so you literally go from immediately opening your mouth and answering the question to just splitting in that second, that stop, think is a coachable moment. Almost always it is, not always. If you're working in hospitals or in emergency services, there's going to be situations which are not coachable moments, but for most of us most of the time the answer is probably going to be yes. So then we then move into the second half of the model, which A is for ask and actively listen. And then R is for result. So this is now where we're building up our capability as managers to really have an operational coaching approach. Now A is for ask is something that is not tackled in almost all even really senior executive coaching programs, postgraduate programs rarely break down how can we learn to ask for the benefit of others. We often just ask questions to data collect and to kind of inform ourselves so we can do a better job answering them. But actually changing that mindset you learn to ask questions that create insights in others is really what A is for ask is about and learning how to properly be in the moment and actively listen. And then we still align managers, there's still an outcome, we're still responsible for the agenda. So R is for result is making sure this isn't just a cozy conversation, even if it's only a one-minute conversation, how do we get to a next step, an outcome, and a commitment. And that's where the R is for result is. So these are very much designed to be very short conversations in the flow of work, walking down a corridor, on the phone, in a Zoom call, in a meeting, and can be used in so many different ways, but that's the essence of the STORM model. >> Just and just picking up on the A is for ask there. As we were doing our work and and and doing research around the whole premise of asking questions, we found there's very very little scientific research that exists on the different impacts that asking questions in a different way can have on someone's thinking. A very limited amount. There's there's some some work around survey design and the emotive impact that words can have. But we were very surprised and and actually I think that the work we've done is really to advance the idea of actually this is a skill we need to learn. How can we architect questions in a different way that actually reaches into someone's head and helps stimulate their thinking. And and it's not a difficult skill to learn. Once you start asking questions, you see very quickly the impact you're having on people. But always that coming from that place of actually I'm not asking the question for myself. I'm I'm asking the most helpful question to this person to help the thinking for where they're at right now. And helping them identify perhaps some actions or some ways that can they can move forward. That's a that's a really distinct difference and I think that's the scientific part of this and and learning to get comfortable with how we ask these questions is is another advance. >> Yeah, and I want to dive deep into the question asking in a moment, but I would love for you first to share a story of what star looks like in action. Like with a client you've worked with, with managers that you've had experiences with. What does it look like, you know, and when someone's actually doing this in the moment? So, if you have a a story to share, I would love to hear it. >> Yeah, I can remember one one particular story. We on one of our programs we had a relatively successful area manager who who ran a series of different supermarkets. Um and his time between supermarket visits would be in the car. And then from the minute he got in the car, it's almost like the jungle drums had alerted everyone on his patch that he's now in the car and his phone would start ringing. And he came on our program and and he he shared with us he said, "You know, I'm a cynic with all these things, but I've got the perfect test because what I'll do is I will just absolutely commit never to give anyone an answer again." So, he he he built a mental trigger for himself that when the phone would ring, that would be his his mental trigger to change state. And actually the answer that the the reaching out to press the answer button on the phone would be him now preparing to to hear what's about to happen and start to think about how he's going to engage with them. Um and so, you know, typically he'll get in the car, the phone would be getting begin ringing and it would be a store manager or assistant store manager asking him for help on a particular issue or getting his his his agreement to do something. Um and he he volunteered only questions to them. And um what he noticed within a period of just two weeks was that the the calls started to tail off very quickly. And when he examined why that was, he recognized that most of the situations that people were ringing him about were uh perhaps de-risking something they knew they should do, but they just wanted to okay it with the boss. Um they perhaps just needed a bit of a confidence boost. Um but he found that just by asking questions and helping build up their own confidence and indicate to them that he believed they were absolutely capable of solving this, which I think is so important in so many different regards, um he was not just empowering them. He was he was signaling to them that I I think you're capable of doing this. Uh to the point where those those calls pretty much tailed off and actually >> he very kindly wrote wrote to us to say actually he had now time in the car between visits to actually be thinking about the next visit he was going to and how he was going to better prepare. So, he really did win time back, very valuable time for him to be more effective when he arrived at the next site. So, really strong evidence that simply engaging in powerful questions and really thinking what through what Laura said, what does this person really need from me right now? Most of the time they don't need you to give the answer. They just need that that that hand of confidence on their shoulder and for you to indicate that you trust them, respect them, and know that they're capable. >> I love these kinds of ripple effects where >> Yeah. >> it's not just about the person they they know the answers and you're giving them the confidence, which goes beyond even that one conversation as you're describing, right? It impacts how they then approach the next problem and the next problem. And that also impacts you as the manager, as you said, giving giving >> time back for you to do other work or other thinking because you're not constantly at the beck and call of your team members. >> Absolutely right. And I'd I'd I'd have your listeners think about it. I mean, some of your listeners, if I ask them, they'll probably recognize one or two people who seem to come to them very, very regularly. And if we actually honest with ourselves, we're probably setting up a dependency there where people feel that they can they can come to you because you'll always give them the answer. And just just signaling through using different form of inquiry, what we call this purposeful inquiry approach, asking people questions, then again, you can find in a very short space of time that those individuals who do come to you regularly either begin to start coming to you with options that they've already thought through or indeed then stop coming to you because you've you've shifted the balance of that relationship. And that's really important. >> So, let's dive into these questions because I I mean, I it makes perfect sense that most of the time when we ask questions, we're asking them for our own benefit. And it's a very different thing to ask for someone else's benefit. So, can you walk us through how do we employ questions differently and the and the types of questions we should be thinking about as we are trying to do that kind of inquiry? >> Maybe Dominic, if you just do a very high wireframe over question as it was your baby, and then I'll give some examples. >> Yeah. So, in in in the program and in the in the book, the the answer is a question, we describe a model called question. And what we've defined is that that we can we can ask questions that have different modes. It's thinking about the the what of what we want to get to, but how we then ask that question. Do we ask it as a reflective question? Do we ask it as a fact-based gathering question? Um and and also the time frame in which we're setting the question. So, for example, if I'm speaking to someone and I feel perhaps that they're lacking in confidence to move forward, I might ask a question that has them delve back into their past about a similar situation and and draw strength from recognizing that they have solved a similar issue before, which they can bring that strength forward to help them where they are. So, the question model just helps you think through the different parts of a question and the context in which you set that question and the time frame in which you set that question to help stimulate people in the most helpful way that they can think. Uh and that model is called the question model. Uh and it's it's something that we explore in the book and help people to understand as as a method for structuring questions that can help. And Laura's got some examples of those questions. >> So, think of it as a question generator. Question is kind of the idea it's generating. And our ultimate goal is not to teach you questions to ask, but to help you kind of naturally bring questions into the flow of your conversations just as you, you know, as you would naturally do. So, it's not kind of a learned thing. It's more about a concept that we're embedding. But to help you practice that and to think about kind of the model, we kind of came up with some fun question cards and things like that that you'll be kind of work through in the program. So, I'm just going to give you a couple of examples. So, one of the things you might want to do is to challenge barriers, for example. So, you how do you help people overcome a barrier that they've got in their head or a limiting belief? So, this is an example of that. What is it that makes you think that? So, that would be an example of a question that helps you actually think about and challenge a barrier you might already have. Another option is you might want to be changing context. You might want to help someone kind of reframe where they are and change the context and the way they're kind of approaching something. So, a question that might help with changing context would be, "Imagine this had been achieved already. Looking back, what was it that had to change?" So, Dominic talked about there of you how you might use time frames in questions. So, in that example, you're getting to look back into their past and draw from their existing memory. You could equally get them to look into the future and think about what they could know what might it look like if they'd been successful. So, the idea is you can change the context of the way people are thinking and they can then create or invent or make up solutions that then build their confidence that way. You might also want to help people shift perspective, for example. So, a shift perspective question is, "What device would you give a colleague in your situation?" So, people are coming to you for advice, but actually, if you want to help them think through what they already know or what options they might have, getting them to sit in someone else's shoes and shift that perspective often creates the insights and the capability and confidence. Cuz if someone had come to them, they would probably have had something to say. So, giving them the confidence to say that but from a different perspective is another way. And the one that Dominic taught me very early in our relationship is what we sometimes call kind of the relationship saver or the marriage saver, which is when we're desperate. And we get so many letters about this from people on the program and emails come in. But actually, our gut is always to want to help our friends and family and our partners and those people that we love. And we often want to help them by telling them what to do. So, this one is for those situations. What does my partner need from me right now? And often when someone is talking to you and downloading, they don't want you to solve their problem. They want something very different. So, actually, just that's the question for yourself in those situations that can be transformational in your relationships. >> I think the the you're sensing those questions that Laura's going through that they they're more provocative in their nature for stimulating thinking. And and I think that's the most powerful thing about this purposeful inquiry approach is you're helping people make new connections in their head and create new insight. This is not about asking a question where they sort of open the cupboards and pull out something they know already. The whole point of purposeful inquiry is to get them to make new insights, to make new linkages, to begin to think differently than they have before, uh to connect different parts of things they might know and and develop a new insight that then gives them an idea for an action that they can take forward. And I think that's the most powerful thing. It's It's a powerful learning intervention because by the very nature of using purposeful inquiry, you're creating those those learning opportunities from those coachable moments. >> I'm I'm curious if there are any kinds of questions that we shouldn't be asking in these moments. All right. Are there questions that are going to shut down the conversation? Or are there types of questions that are clearly only for our benefit and not for the other person's? >> Sure. That I mean, there's one common trap and we all think we're doing a great job when we ask these questions, but uh we we we we tend to default, even if we think we're asking questions to helping people, by saying, "Have you tried?" It's It's advice dressed up as a question. Yeah, "What about?" And so, you're unfortunately you're already now leading their thinking. Which typically when you ask questions like that, it leads only to a yes or no answer because you're not stimulating them to have to do some thinking to make some new connections. Um a question like "Could you do this?" A- Again, it's still advice dressed up as a question. Um so, they're the sorts of things where we have to be really, really careful and guard against not dropping back into providing advice, but dressing it up as a question because we're just not going to stimulate the right outcome. >> I also think you've got to be very, very careful if you start a question with the word why. Because what you also do when you do that is push people into defensive defiance. So, the minute you start asking questions like why did this happen, um and or you know, why did you do that, or anything like that, people are immediately going to get defensive and they're going to clam up and close down, um or just have to defend and justify. It None of that is stimulating new insights, new thinking, and actually it can often destroy um relationships and trust. So, that's a very important thing to also be cognizant of. If you're ever tempted to start a question with why, try and instead start it with what or what specifically cuz at least then you're making it less personal and trying to get more into the into the detail of, you know, learning. But, even so, the the trick is to not come to questions with the view of data finding or trying to, you know, dig into those problems yourself and certainly not to get people on the back foot. >> Yeah, great a great example of that. I mean, we've worked with so many different people in sales and regional management and retail management. And, you know, typically the Monday morning meeting where you review the previous week's results is a is a is a tense time anyway for the store manager or the branch manager. But, then asking, you know, why didn't this go like this or why didn't this happen this way? It is very accusatory almost in its tone. And it's it it doesn't create that working collaboration that you really want to generate for someone who's, you know, driving a retail unit or a restaurant or something like that. So, changing that from why did this happen like this to what were the factors that contributed to that? You can see immediately how it's depersonalized it and focused on the on the the artifact of the situation. It's going to create a much more productive outcome because we're actually looking at the and turning over what were the elements that contributed to this most, which is which is moving it more to a more from a sort of a parent-child scolding type question to more of an adult-adult collaborative engagement question. And I think that's what we want to strive for as we move towards becoming a a star manager. >> Yeah, it's it's interesting how those little nuances can have such a huge impact on how the other person hears the question or interprets what we're asking for. And it's those little shifts in language that can be a total game changer. I'm curious what we do though when we do have ideas and we do want to at least put them on the table. So we've done some good question asking, but we know that the person's maybe missing some critical information or doesn't have the same level of experience that we have. Are there ways that we can still offer up our ideas without shutting down the conversation or making them feel like, "Well, why do you ask me all these things if you were just going to tell me what to do?" >> Yeah, Alison, I think I think that's a really really great question. The reality is we're not expecting people to be in that operational coaching mode 100% of the time. We're still managers and leaders and we still have a role to play. So we would expect our capacity and our time to be split fairly evenly between the time we're actually kind of coaching and having that mindset when we're leading, managing, or even having to do stuff ourselves. So the first thing to say is that no one's expecting you to be in this zone 100% of the time. It's finding more opportunities to do it. So I think what we're looking here is to drive collaboration. So when you're in that situation, when you've got ideas, it's about creating an environment where that collaborative style of leadership and management is really at the top of that agenda. So if you're in a meeting and people are throwing ideas out, of course if you've got ideas, you should put them on the table as well, but they should be equal ideas. You shouldn't be carrying extra weight because you're the line manager. And then you should all kind of look at the list of ideas and discuss the pros and cons of, you know, what works. So I think if you've really got some great ideas, you'd be it's a bit unfair on the organization, on your company, or yourself to to not share them. But it's how you share them and how you're positioning [clears throat] that as an equal idea with everyone else's. And honestly, genuinely, most of the time many many people say that the other ideas that came out of those conversations were better than theirs. They were more innovative, they were fresher, they were newer, they were just recycling stuff that you had worked before when, you know, the ideas we're sharing is stuff that we know has worked. But I think, Dominic, you've got an amazing story of that really sums that up from that fabulous the fabulous guy that had one of the biggest ah-has that I know has stuck with you. >> Oh, yeah. No, that that's a that's a great story. I I was on a practitioner session with a with a small group of uh fairly leaders. And uh it was an opportunity for them to share what had been working well for them. And um this this guy shared this one story with us. And he said um yeah, I had this uh I had this young lady who's worked you know, who works for me. She's a a Cambridge graduate from Cambridge University in the UK. And uh she came to me one day with this this idea. And he said I was really proud of myself cuz you know, I'd learned to bite my tongue. So, I bit my tongue and I didn't tell her all the reasons this idea wouldn't work because we'd seen all this sort of stuff before. He said and and he said, I engaged with her some questions and he said it was actually a really productive conversation during which we identified between the three options that she could perhaps pursue. And you know, I asked her a few more questions and we ended up agreeing that she would take these three options and do some more work on each of them and bring them back to me. He said about four days later, she came back to me but not just with some more thought around these options. She'd actually gone to the trouble of ringing various departments. She'd spoken to the finance department and actually put some meaningful numbers around these options. And he said I was completely blown away. Um and again, I stayed in in state and I asked her questions and I helped her identify one option that she could pursue even further and I could support her in doing that. And he said, and I reflected and I said now I was so so proud that I hadn't told her why it wouldn't work and indeed, I'd just asked the questions. He said, but the reason I wanted to share this with you because that moment of pride lasted for about 5 seconds because I recognized that yet that young lady's been working for me for now for 3 years and I have been squandering her natural talent. And there's a very very powerful moment for this gentleman who is who's more seasoned in his career and I know because we stayed in contact that he only had a few years left of his career before retirement but he completely changed the entire nature of his purpose. He he recognized that he's already arrived. There's nothing more for him to prove and actually his experience and his insight in this organization could be turned to really help develop the next tiers who will come behind him and keep this organization going. So became a really really powerful enabler of other people's talents and I think that's that really captures what operational coaching is all about. We labor as managers without really a strong mindset of quite what it is we're supposed to be doing. But in the book The Answer is a Question we we describe this philosophical idea that once we we have this role as a line manager it is a privilege. You know, to to be able to engage with support and develop other people is an absolute privilege. Um and actually if we can develop a philosophy around my role and my purpose is to enable the skills and talents of others then you can see how operational coaching really fits in and drives that as the day-to-day reason for going into work and being an effective line manager. >> Yeah, I I have to say I think the concept of manager as someone who enables others to do their best work that is the most succinct and I think spot-on definition of a manager I've ever heard and I'm I'm totally going to adopt that. I love it so much. >> [laughter] >> And unfortunately now we are out of time. So can you tell us again remind us the name of your book where can we find it and how can we keep up with your work? >> Well, the name of the book is The Answer is a Question. You can find it from most good retailers, but certainly Amazon, um amazon.com or amazon.co.uk, whichever country you're listening to this from. Um but it's in lots of good regular retailers, Barnes & Noble um in the States also stock it as do Waterstones in the UK, for example. So, that's the book. Um the other thing we have put together for all your listeners is a webpage with lots of other resources um that we are happy to share. It's called starmanager.global, which is a webpage um website that's got lots more information about some of our mythology um um and what we do. But, if you go forward {slash} podcast, we've put together some lovely resources that will hopefully be really really useful um and some mini exercises as well and some activities people can do to really kind of learn more about this and hopefully help themselves win some time back. >> Yeah, and and for those who might have an interest to go on further, they can find details of the Star Manager program, uh which we have managers now pursuing that program in 40 different countries and they are becoming now certified Star Managers and uh they are making a difference in their organizations, which is what we really really really want. >> Yeah, our absolute mission, actually, Maimie, is to transform sort of capabilities of managers everywhere so that we can create a movement of managers that are there every day to unleash the potential of everyone and in doing so create what we call epic workplaces, places that we all want to go to work which are engaging, productive, inclusive and collaborative and a lot of fun to go to every day. >> Well, I am a big supporter of your mission and I really appreciate both of you coming on today and walking us through this model. So helpful. I've definitely learned a lot and I'm really grateful for your time. >> Thanks very much. Thanks for having us. >> Thank you so much.