Spectral | Smart Solution Certification

foreign [Music] hello hello everybody nice to uh nice to be with you all we're we're excited to be with you again um as you all know smart building Collective smart building certification is founded in science refined by practice constantly optimized by our network of experts and our partners and the solutions that are part of the ecosystem are are part of that expert Network um today we're going to be talking to Young from nordana from from spectral and spectral is an is an incredible company um the smart building piece is one one uh aspect of that company but it does a lot more Young's going to give us a full introduction into it today um but really it's about diving into their their recent solution certification so we we certified the spectral solution against the SBC framework and yeah it's a fascinating solution so the the SBC framework to give you all a little bit of a reminder is built up of of a number of different modules uh building usage is all about how is the asset being utilized building performance is about how well does that asset perform energy you know water these types of things and and spectral is really uh their their core focus is on energy optimization so I think we're going to be spending a lot of time on the discussion there uh building environment is about health and well-being and how well is the environment suited for for humans to use it uh Safety and Security is about how do we make sure that people are safe and secure but also how do we tackle cyber security and as we build more technology into building cyber security becomes more and more of of a topic area um and then user behavior and collaboration is how are people interacting with each other and how are they interacting with the building and what kind of Technology are we putting in place to to to do these uh to capture these the solution certification um it's it's not just about a label of of these Solutions being accredited against the framework um it is that but it's it's so much more you know uh the demand came from building owners saying hey nice that you through your uh smart building certification have identified gaps in areas for our Improvement but how do we find solutions that make sense and how do we find solutions that that meet our needs um and so we launched the solution certification kind of at the beginning of 2022 to tackle that you know to help people find uh proper Solutions and then it actually opened up a a lot of room for other opportunities so it's not just about um you know matchmaking to buildings uh it is about that but it is also about matchmaking to each other because we believe that when Solutions can create uh social cohesion with other Solutions then actually you can you can start to configure smart buildings before having those discussions after the fact you know if a building buys a number of solutions and then says hey can you guys speak to each other that's actually unfortunate because then you have this kind of battle for for territory and who's going to do what and it's not as efficient as if we can do that uh you know beforehand so that's really what we've been we've been focusing a lot of our attention on is how do we help Solutions find each other and we're happy with with a number of different matches that have been made already and we're just going to keep going and and keep uh keep trying to add value and change the industry so without further Ado I'm going to bring young onto stage which I think he is already here and uh and we're going to get into it hey Jan hello fine how are you I am good I'm good I can't complain it's busy there's a lot of stuff going on um there's there's so many uh fascinating things going on in the industry right now so it's uh it's nice to be with you and to just kind of dive into it we really like these sessions because they're it takes very complex topics complex Solutions and it kind of brings it down to layman's terms you know what does it mean for for the market so uh we're excited to dump and jump in the spectral with you um shall we start first with uh who are you and who is uh who is spectral I think that's a good place to start well uh I'm yamas my background is real estate used to work for a real estate uh company owner a role as a sustainability Innovation manager and before that property manager so over 10 years experience in the in the real estate domain uh and within spectral I'm responsible for uh that's what's currently called the smart building platform it's a real estate uh uh solution um and we're rebranding it to brighter as we are rebuilding uh the the product uh basically uh giving it a a new design um so um yeah and who is spectral I would say uh we're a startup with several startups an ecosystem um uh originally founded in the 2015 uh really uh with the goal um uh focus on uh speeding up the energy transition so if you look at the solutions where uh that we have a spectral as a whole um we still went uh wind farms uh battery solutions for net balancing uh if there's grid congestion uh even then the the grid operators ask us for a solution because due to our technology we can actually uh well uh solve basically the the the grid congestion um and uh yeah then we have the real estate part the smart building platform where basically we gather information through system Integrations with all kinds of apis we visualize and analyze the data and we have the possibility not only to give insights in the savings potential of a building but we can actually Take Over Control of a building through an intelligent model that constantly optimizes the building there are a way uh optimizing comfort and saving a lot of energy basically yeah brilliant and you know there's a there's a lot of uh Solutions out there these days that are you know AI BMS optimization for energy and these types of things which I think you guys fit into but I think what makes you guys extra special or or different is that knowledge of how it plays into a bigger picture you know about the community and about how it you know plays into the grid and uh renewable energy uh sources these types of things so I think that makes you guys guys very unique so what we want to do today is we kind of want to go through the SBC framework and just talk about spectral or talk about the smart building platform from each one of those perspectives because what we see with the SBC framework is that it actually allows different stakeholders to look at what we're doing from their perspective and it's it's really important for us to try and simplify things for each of those different stakeholders so for instance building usage right it's all about how can we get a handle on how the asset is being used and it was so interesting we just I just put something out on on LinkedIn about uh the the latest leaseman research that said that buildings are going to be used less and less because people aren't aren't using them as much anymore so it's it's kind of a critical Moment For Real Estate owners to get a better handle on how that that building is being used so how does your guys's solution help that process um well like uh it all starts with having data uh and that's uh the starting point for everything if you don't have data you don't know what your Baseline is and how our solution helps is with uh Gathering the data so you know where you're at and really getting a grip on what's going on in the building by uh the integration with the building management system the the system that well basically controls all the the HVAC installations are within the building basically by being the layer on top of it um and adding additional information and knowing how the building reacts with certain conditions and then proactively act on future conditions we get a grip on yeah I said making the uh the building run as as efficient as it can be in the current state and uh that I think is the most important making sure that what's there uh is optimized for the Max and then look at okay Based on data it makes sense to replace a certain boiler for a heat pump or do investment for actual replacement but first and that's where our model uh yeah is basically is critical make sure that what's there is running perfectly so is should I should I see that as that you use occupancy data for for those insights or are you very much looking at the machines and the how the systems are are functioning and operating and how often it is um like um uh occupancy is a parameter uh but that's uh more use as a validation for a um uh based on the initial inputs we got a certain floor should be occupied but we see on based on on the data that's there that it's not being occupied then we verify uh uh basically like okay is it empty and then we can if it's technically possible also shut off a certain room and then it's okay that uh a floor or a room gets under a certain temperature because normally we we want a good comfort so we need to ignore them certain uh temperatures because otherwise uh we'll start heating up uh at the the room but our basic uh information we're getting actually from the building management system we every data point uh we got real time uh that's in the BMS we have real time in our own environment but added with a additional layer to do the analysis and send information back and um our the intelligence behind the model is that it makes the session based on uh the data we see so uh normally in BMS it operates like okay I have to be on at a certain moment in time I go off at a certain moment in time and it meets a certain temperature and there's um like the the the amount of heat Supply uh the temperatures is determined based on outside temperature but there's a lot of intelligence within the BMS but it's very hard to have the settings right and we can tweak it constantly and our model knows at a certain moment that okay with the certain outside temperatures um it takes an x amount of time to heat up the building it will cool down at a certain amount of time so meaning we can find the optimum moment to start heating up the building at as late as possible but also because we're very flexible in changing values we can also constantly take the right temperature amount of heating the building basically heating degrees the water that that flows to through the building and it's just some examples uh blocking the heat Supply because you know the Sun is going to shine so it building doesn't overheat and then you have to start cooling immediately so there are all kinds of yeah smart things within the model to make sure that you optimize for it and yeah like occupancy isn't a parameter that we uh we check but it's definitely not the main driver yeah okay interesting so you know it's it's so yeah the the so the way we should be looking at the Smart building structure from spectral is that you are really driving the machinery and the optimization of the building based on the parameters of of the the weather and of different Outsource aspects and then your scheduling of course of of when when that that space is planned to be used yeah you can see us basically as a like a a car tuner like uh you have you have a good working car but if you tune it you get way more yeah value out of your car then your engineer is but it's still the same car uh and that's uh that's basically she has we yeah um and we have a prerequisite we need enough data coverage meaning so in a lot of cases we place additional sensors uh but besides that it's just we work with what's there uh and that's what I think makes makes us so powerful that you don't have to do all kinds of physical Investments uh to make your uh building run more smoothly so so what makes the difference between like a a 1970s mg and a Formula One race car in the building sector oh um throw you on the spot yeah this this is a good one because then um I'll have to watch out of course to start talking before I have my thoughts in order but that's that's not gonna happen anyway like um let's let's see like a um the Formula One car are the really new buildings that are very complex but um if you give a formula car sort of Formula One car to a child of 12. it's it's not gonna it's not gonna work because they cannot handle it you need someone who's trained to drive the car and um if you have an old car probably a child of 12 especially when it's an automatic can drive the car and come from A to B and I think I'm actually on the good track here with a good comparison so um the the from Formula One car is um uh is a very good technologically very uh sophisticated cars there's nothing wrong with that and that's with a lot of new buildings in basis there's nothing wrong with it but there are only a very limited amount of people that can actually are trained uh to operate that car and that's what you see that there is a lot of um the newer the building the more complex the building the more unnecessary usage there is because it becomes it became too complex to have the settings uh set in a proper way in the BMS and uh it's very hard with the well how bmss are set up to as a person make it perfect and then still you have the static settings you have to uh put in the system and then you still don't have that Dynamic adjustments that we are doing so um uh basically it became so complex that you that you need systems like ours to operate it properly um and it's now not trained persons but it's a trained system uh to have it operated so uh and I I love the analogy right because I think what we're seeing with the smart building certification is that we're starting to see actually more technology in the buildings than is actually being able to be used so I completely confirm what you're saying that at a certain point it becomes overwhelming and too too complicated to to have one you know single user be able to do it yeah um and so yeah now I think we're getting into more of a fine-tuning place of how do we find the right level of technology and functionality for for the result and I think that makes a nice bridge to the next module of of building performance so when you when you look at a really technical building or a less technical building what what are the building performance parameters that that spectral is going to help achieve like what what is what are you actually optimizing what are you making better basically our primary driver is a uh um steering on a good Comfort level basically indoor climate Comfort because um it's important that that that the tenants uh the people that are in the building uh have uh as as good as a comfort as as possible and um uh currently often there are no eyes uh on on the building so we don't know exactly what the temperatures are and um we say okay we we steer within the the iso 74 that's that's clear that there are a certain bandwidth where you have to stay Within um uh so that's very objective also to uh to measure uh but um uh and in that way making it objective measurable is already a big game um and then um uh yeah our model adjusts to stay as efficient as possible uh between those those parameters so um yeah basically that's it in a very simple fight uh way yeah okay so so because that's actually the next module is building environment but that's actually where you guys Focus you you get your parameters set on what the proper indoor environment is based on the trends and based on what you're trying to do uh with your space and then what is it actually doing from a performance perspective is it actually helping with energy consumption or is it what's what's the yeah yeah it's it's all about yeah it helps uh dramatically in most cases with energy consumption in a mainly uh heating uh savings um because it constantly searches for the optimal way to stay within that uh Comfort uh uh range um so it's and and that's why I say we PRI the primary driver is comfort and the result is Energy savings because if you want Energy savings you just shut down all the insulations and you have a lot of energy savings right but then you have complaining uh tenants and that's something we don't want so the result is just a lot of energy savings because yeah [Music] basic settings are often not entirely correct and a BMS is a very difficult capable of adjusting proactive on on future events basically and constantly changing settings because settings are now in most cases changed manually and a human being cannot change 25 setting at once for a future event and that's what we're constantly doing so um yeah optimizing comfort and this way really saving a lot of energy uses for and what is what is an average savings would you say currently the average and we can like scientifically prove that is that we have 25 four percent on heating as an average but the the bandwidth is between 8 and 55 percent and then yeah and then the eight percent is basically four and I'd say an older uh less complex building that is very closely monitor monitored by uh uh like an installer or maintenance company uh yeah and 55 is a very complex building okay so actually the the older style building that is a little bit less technically put together is actually doing better energy-wise I guess on average yes yep that's interesting yeah that's really interesting I have actually made it we've made it worse with the more complexity yeah because um uh I did uh like years ago I did an analysis based on the the energy labels uh and I had a like a data set of I think 150 160 buildings with uh where I did an analysis with the theoretical usage based on the energy label for uh for a building and what it actually was and there you saw like the the better the energy label aka the newer the building the more of the energy users watching uh was and that's yeah quite common now now but it's just because it's so complex and you see uh things with actually Heating and Cooling being on on the set at the same time and it's just not picked up because just are there's so much data in the the building management system that you need a model to gather the data all give you insights act on it so and just use the the BMS environment as a reference to if you know where the problem is to actually dive into it uh because that's the benefit of the BMS environment itself it's more visual yeah so uh yeah but uh but I mean that's so that's actually the opposite uh of the goal right based on what you're talking about this this energy label being the opposite of the result being opposite of what it was supposed to do yeah but it's basically um how you say it's uh it's the same with uh smart building certification right it's a starting point and to give you a roadmap okay what can I do to improve my building and with the energy label it's like okay wow okay my building is a label or a plus label so it should be good no what we should start doing is looking at the actual performance of a building and that's well a certain kilowatt hours per square meter per year and also have the regulations based on that what's the actual performance of the building that's the only thing that matters and not the theory behind it yeah absolutely and that's what's so kind of yeah disheartening or or challenging with all these labels and certifications in these things is that if you if you give a an a rated energy label or a platinum smart building certification there are people that that kind of think oh okay we're done you know it's it's perfect it works I don't have to worry about it anymore and actually that's still where the work begins because it's not about the technology in any way it's it's what we do with it that actually is going to make make the difference yeah so would you say in these newer buildings and these older buildings a system or spectral or a system-like spectral is absolutely fundamentally necessary then yeah yeah I I I hope uh and um that like like every building with the BMS system in the entire world will use a system like ours because we're not the only one that can do this properly of course but it's needed because one uh of course there are a lot of very good technicians that can manage beems systems but they're not enough and this works way faster way more than that I mean more challenging I think they're becoming less and less of them yeah yeah so uh if you have systems like this operating the buildings yeah well what I said like on average 24 on Heating yeah that's that's like tremendous uh to have that uh and the more sophisticated the model gets because it's not like a model and we're done we're constantly improving the more buildings we have the more we learn the more data the more we learn uh so it will only improve it's a necessity yeah and uh yeah I said um every uh not uh used uh energy we don't have to uh get somewhere in a renewable way right so it's uh uh we're wasting a lot the best energy is the energy we're not using yeah thank you that was the one I was searching for yeah so is there is there kind of like um aged buildings that don't need this then you know we were talking about the older buildings having less energy waste uh they can be managed with a with a single technician or a team of technicians yeah but you they say that there's a line where we say buildings after this point should have that or or I like your view uh we currently approach it more from a way like um uh of course Finance is also important so meaning uh investment versus potential savings and there are currently uh we say on average uh if it's a office building uh above 2 000 square meters there's like a good case uh that there's like a break-even point within three years uh and and then I'm not talking about who pays the bill and who gets the savings just cost versus savings um and um so it's about more about the size of the building uh and yeah that will go down as we get more efficient uh of course our pricing model will also go down so I wouldn't say it's per se the H but of course to be having a BMS is a necessity um and our main focus currently is Office Buildings we're going to do the first proof concept with uh with the hotel but also really really makes sense but um to answer your question also all buildings still makes makes sense to do it because there's always something to gain only what we see is the older the building in most cases less you can can get okay and the bigger the building the more the savings I guess uh yeah in absolute numbers of course uh per square meter that's not per se the case it's more about how complex it is only um the bigger the building uh the more efficient cases will be because uh yeah if you look at the cost per square meter they will go down the bigger the building it is because you need some you always have like a base cost that you have to do anyway so yeah okay nice and so yeah the next the next kind of module of of the framework is Safety and Security you know and what we talk about is both physical and digital uh talking about you know cyber security and I don't think you guys are involved in the physical security space but how are you guys tackling you know the digital security because you know as we digitize buildings as it becomes more you know how are we uh how are you guys tackling that or what's what's your focus or your opinion about it like um uh with the the connection uh with uh with the building management system we we use physical devices that we place on location where uh yeah basically we use uh completely our own data uh lines uh so to speak uh which are of course uh secured uh so Midway making sure that it's as safe as as possible um and uh also everywhere where we store the data it's like we yeah it's all online we use online servers basically in the cloud services and there we use uh well I said The Usual Suspects with servers in on the European soul and where there it comes with a large security layer uh basically so in that way we pay a lot of attention uh to digital security and uh uh yeah we recently had a yeah what's called a pen test uh basically a penetration test where an external party uh well did a a forced Bridge um and uh we did very well so uh that uh yeah I was very reassuring so that's uh that's not very encouraging yeah yeah and you can also ask yourself you know what we see in the smart building certification is first of all not all data is created equal right you have privacy data which of course is very uh important to keep very very secure and make sure that that especially if you're collecting financial information and these types of things that that needs to be you know locked down but then you have less you know uh kind of sensitive data if you talk about you know occupancy or energy users these types of things it's just not as uh as critical in keeping safe yeah and that's mainly of course the the data we handle uh it's uh from a privacy standpoint it's not very sensitive um so in that way uh yeah that's one thing the only thing of course yeah theoretically quickly we are controlling a building so if there's a bridge there someone can well do not fun stuff with the building uh yeah only like it's often that there's remote access to building management system because in solars nowadays also they won't go to location constantly it's also all remote so also there's not a direct yeah a large change in it so um yeah yeah and then I guess the big the big users of energy might not want that news to go out so that could be sensitive data yeah yeah so you know still on this building performance side of of things you know the the you say that a solution like spectral is very needed for controlling bms's these days um what is the BMS world doing uh with Innovation and improving in order to offer this themselves well yeah um there are brands that uh have like an extension uh that is is similar to what we do uh so of course they also know like this is a this is a necessity uh so they're also entering uh this domain uh there's one BMS brand uh that has a uh the capability or of really flexible setting all the settings so that you can really if you have the knowledge can yeah optimize the building have a very flexible way of running the building but it's um yeah still a lot of manual labor but yeah um the BMS parties are entering this domain only mainly they do it for their own BMS and if you look at uh an average client of oursel the larger portfolio they have at least three four uh sometimes seven eight different kind of bns's meaning that would mean for them that I have to uh yeah well have a lot of different solutions and now they have one platform uh basically that yeah for some buildings is capable ad Office Buildings uh to control it and for all other kind of buildings uh you get at least energy data so you have one solution that that covered it so um one way of looking at the data because that's the other thing every BMS has a different way of logging in and that kind of stuff and now it's all tackled in uh uh yeah in one system and on the other hand um you don't actually have to log in anymore uh for uh the BMS or the BMS data you just want to see everything is running smoothly and that's uh you can see in the platform or we provide reports with uh what's going on in the in the building multiple systems is multiple trainings there's multiple you know humans need to use it absolutely yeah so when it comes to uh our last module which is user behavior and collaboration and I mean that's that's the core modules um I I guess spectral does it help with with the user experience and how people interact with the building uh you know what you guys do if somebody's changing the energy is that possible when we get an assignment for uh for a building uh uh yeah we asked like okay often there are like thermostats uh in rooms or parts of the the building where you can adjust the temperature with say plus three minus three uh and it's up to our client to say okay we want that still uh the functioning uh function basically or uh we disable it now in most cases say like that tenant is the most important so if they want a plus three or a minus three we should be uh allowing them so spectral and the occupants of the building there's no direct uh uh inter uh yeah interaction basically uh we try to make the comfort as as good as possible for them and allow them still to change some settings and only with yeah if uh if there are climate complaints if they occur then of course we have a service desk uh to see what's going on if it's a physical issue Etc and towards the future we will we want to launch like an app just with say simple feedback where people can say like okay it's comfortable or I would wish to have it a little bit warmer or colder because all that data is also valuable to well improve the way the model behaves on a certain building but that's for now uh future material well and I I really like that you know and the research is completely out right now there's a lot of discussion happening of of what level of control is the right level of control for users you know you it I think if you look back three four years ago it was about giving them everything in the app of turning on the lights changing the temperature you know way finding all of that stuff and now I think the sentiment is starting to become more actually the building should do that stuff for you right you so I like where you're going with it as let's capture the preferences but not necessarily allow the control and I think that that's actually I think the research over time is going to support that yeah yeah and from like even like just from a technical perspective and not me speaking as a spectral but as uh someone who used to be a property manager for a long time um like the best buildings tenants have no influence on the climate because in basis if it's designed and built well it should run quite smoothly because what you a thing what you often see when um it's hot in in the summer people open the windows but that it's totally counter effective you feel wind but you're actually pulling warmer air inside so you screw up the system and it's a logic reaction because you feel in control you feel a breeze and it seems like it's colder but by opening a window yeah you're screwing up quite a lot for the entire building because it goes out of balance and a lot of those things are uh yeah are problematic and that's you should have as less control as possible and even with the radiator thermostat so basically yeah often they're used but they should be on the same value like if a space is occupied otherwise they should be turned off of course um but um like on on the same value throughout the year because that's often what you see like people are like oh I'm cold uh turn it up to five but the five represents a certain value meaning it will start overheating and that's uh even that little control people like it but it's not overall good for the building yeah a lot of buildings put in kind of the fake thermostat right where people actually think that they've increased it but it doesn't do anything but it helps it actually helps because it's it's the placebo effect right where you think that it's actually solving your problem but it's uh it's it's not but I think it's a great great solution in some ways and we always say the smartest building should be one where a user kind of goes throughout their day have a fantastic day and end up at home being like wow I feel energized I feel good I feel like everything kind of worked for me today and you know sick building syndrome and and badly managed energy and and heat and and that it wears on people to the point where that when they get home they're they're exhausted from it right so I think a it's a really interesting discussion happening around it but there are like there are so many aspects uh with like a comfortable uh buildings because uh um like one is making sure that what's there is operating correctly but then it's like okay most cases lighting is not controlled via a BMS but sufficient and good lighting uh that's a thing that has a tremendous effect but uh even down to is there sufficient cleaning because that's often you get complaints with that dry eyes uh especially when it's colder outside the the air becomes a bit drier also inside meaning that all the dust in the room will float higher but then it's like yeah the building is not good or the the HVAC system is is not doing well no it's the indoor cleaning that that is very important and often we don't spend enough time on indoor cleaning so it's it's the total that makes it uh good um and not the the individual uh things so uh yeah that's a perfect segue to our next thing right because you know what we want to see is actually the least amount of technology for the maximum amount of impact in all of those different areas and we you know what holds all of that together is of course connectivity but also integrative design you know how do we get solutions to speak to each other to move away from the siled way of working right where you have somebody working on energy consumption and you have somebody working on cleaning well actually there is overlap there there is a way to to um yeah kind of use technology for both so what is your guys's philosophy on integrative design and how do you guys partner with other companies and I know you guys are steering BMS systems so there's there's strong integration there already but how do you guys see being part of that holistic perspective that you're talking about now like um uh in basis uh um we work towards becoming the platform within real estate meaning we can provide value for all the different roles within real estate that's quite a big goal yeah if you want to do it all by yourself it's not going to happen and um you want to make the value proposition as valuable for clients and potential clients as possible meaning you need to work together and that's the best together you can get to go faster than if you want try to do it all alone so meaning we do have our own sensors that we place a lot but we also have Integrations with third parties because the sensors were already there and then I don't want to say to a client or a potential client we're going to place our own centers no we integrate with third parties and that makes sense because we'll encounter them more and more and more it means the faster we can onboard more buildings and and bring value and get that energy usage down so My Philosophy is that you need to work together and integrate with basically as many logic parties as possible and especially uh like there are some that have so much knowledge in certain domains yeah why try to invent the wheel yourself if you can partner up so um uh yeah what we're seeing with the solution certification is that there's something that we call pure Integrations right and there's something we call conflicted Integrations and conflicted Integrations is a bit where you have overlapping functionality with the partner that you're potentially going to partner with yeah and it creates a bit of Challenge and conflict because there's kind of this fight for territory and who's going to do what and you know and and the the host party is always going to choose for their own functionality of course right but yeah what's more interested is is this like kind of pure Integrations of finding parties that are a hundred percent complementary with with no kind of overlap right where you can just work together um do you guys see it the same way I mean I saw you no like yeah because um uh because we have quite a broad offering if you if you look at getting the data visualizing the data and and then also at the control part meaning we work together with quite a lot of parties where we have a lot of overlap yeah uh but in the end it's um you want to make uh you have a client a joint client and uh you want to make them be valuable for them in the most efficient way meaning that yeah sometimes maybe your complete competition in one trajectory and the other time uh yeah you work together uh to have that that value proposition for for a joint client yeah um if I look at what we do it's almost impossible to only work together with parties that that whereas there's no overlap and um uh yeah I don't think it's um uh bad to also work together uh with parties and have well uh basically exchange data uh where there's also an overlap in in offering yeah that that what I say it's almost impossible with uh our solution well that's what we believe in as well from a collective perspective is working together so if you're a building owner how do you go about that what what's the best way to to think about multiple Solutions together and and capturing that kind of overview of of your total solution and how do you choose your partners I mean what what would be your yeah it's a tough question but then then I think uh I have to uh look back at my previous job because then I was really searching like I I needed something uh and it's just talking with a lot of parties um and it's like okay what's my goal for my portfolio or what's my goal for a certain building um and then talk to the market and see what you think is the best fit and like I strongly believed in I wanted like an umbrella platform that I don't have to log in to a lot of platforms basically so a One-Stop shop but maybe that's for other persons not the best fit but it's just yeah asking in the market like okay and this is my need which party seems to uh to be a good fit have a conversation and uh yeah also what I think is also all the part of choosing a solution uh it's the person behind it because uh absolutely the solution can be good but if the yeah the person behind it or managing a product a project is not uh the best fit still can be but uh yeah and that's what you know our solution certification is also not just about the technology right it's about the organization behind the technology it's about the people it's about the culture it's about the ethos what are they trying to do what is their their uh stance on these types of topics of you know are we open to integrate are we closed uh you know are we open with our data do we want to make sure that everybody's looking at it together or or you know closed off and we'll just provide you the service you know there's very big differences and in the choice as a building owner there's also pros and cons of working with those different types of situations you know um so it's it's not about right or wrong it's about you know preference and what works for you and how can I as an organization get what I what I need out of it yeah so how do you guys how do you see yourselves culturally and how do you do it uh what are your what your geographies you know what's the the partner ecosystem you think about how yeah tell us about your team yeah like um well if I look at my team basically for smart building platform slash brighter uh at we're at 22 23 uh uh people uh uh basically internationally um so we have a lot of people that move to the Netherlands uh to join spectral uh basically uh one common thing culture is everyone is impact driven uh they really are here because they see that we at least try to improve the world uh uh for the better so um I think that's a very common uh driver um and uh yeah from a partner perspective yeah we we have several Partners where we really try to cooperate with uh um uh yeah for also for rapid growth but we're working together with really makes sense um and um so yeah that that that's expanding uh but um yeah and which countries are you working in at the moment uh currently you want to work currently uh officially we're only operating still in the Netherlands uh but um we're uh preparing and that's basically also an assignment uh already uh to move into uh Germany and uh Belgium uh for the first building also really the building integration so the the control part um yeah and several existing clients and uh potential clients then we're also looking at uh friends uh Austria Poland basically but um also there we want to take it step by time uh step by step I have to say uh and uh so basically between new now and uh two three months uh will be uh uh onboarding our first building in uh Germany and Belgium so because there is a bit of um Hands-On work that happens right the installation of a device is that something that you all have to do or is that something that it's like depends at the moment uh basically uh we do it ourselves uh except for with one partner uh where we where they do it for us um and um uh but they are currently operating also in the Netherlands but that well really speeds up onboarding uh buildings really the the building integration part uh but we're working towards um going to more also of a reseller model but X at least third parties uh enable third parties to do the installation because we developed an app application for that so our sensors can already be installed by Third parties and then the Gateway also but um they're still a lot of on-site Hands-On checks that needs to be done uh currently because to give a bit of a context if you really start controlling a building you may need to make sure that everything is in order meaning we physically check the installations we want to steer if they're functioning functioning correctly giving the right data to the BMS because that's also a thing and that's something we currently still do ourselves but we're working towards um I said Based on data having a way better uh yeah list of things that we expect our own that we can then hand over to an installer to check it uh and then basically our goal is to uh next year uh that we don't have to go to a location anymore for uh installations and getting a building up and running that it can can completely be done by uh by Third parties and then BMS at the time because that will be a different work needed per BMS basically so yeah yeah and when I when I if I'm a building owner and I need to think about kind of the cost structure of something like this how would I how would I go about that is that is that yeah is it expensive is it going to break the bank is it going to be reasonable yeah like uh it's uh it's all in context but um uh we work with the initial onboarding fee and then assass recurring fee uh basically and uh what we see is that um in let's call it 99 of the cases if you're building is uh two thousand twenty five hundred square meters or larger that your break-even point cost versus savings again not saying who is paying and who's getting the savings the break-even point is within three years okay so and the larger the building the newer the building the more savings there are and the the cost per square meter are are lower uh so that's that's basically uh how it works and we're also flexible uh with uh um initial and recurring to uh yeah basically uh uh shift a bit in that and and from a governance perspective because you talk about that the pricing you know you know it doesn't matter who we're not talking about who's taking on the cost it's that's just pure what it is how are you seeing that is that is it sitting with the the building owner most of the time or is it with a tenant these days or uh yeah um it depends a bit on on uh the client basically but what I see in most cases is that the the initial onboarding fee uh the the owner is paying and that the recurring uh is uh like service charges um and uh that's also in my opinion correct uh because um they're buying an application uh that lowers uh the energy consumption and energy consumption in most cases is paid by by the tenants um and uh yeah what you see with all our clients that are like okay uh we do want to make sure that um there's like benefit for everyone meaning that your cost should be lower than the savings um so say if it's a like a three-year break-even point then a year or one our cost might be higher than the savings and some clients then say like okay uh the the Surplus we also will uh will pay uh or uh put in the next year uh surf charges but really looking out for that it's an uh well Optimum case for uh for everyone so yeah amazing yeah I think it's the the industry is in discussion right now right of where all this stuff sits and where it belongs and how to build it through and you know should the one who's who's getting the benefit pay the cost because right now sometimes the cost is being asked to be paid by the one who's not necessarily getting the benefit and I think it's just an interesting time that we're dealing with this but I think it is starting to come out more and more and I think I think what you just mentioned as a structure of hey I as a building owner I'm going to give you the functionality but the functionality is for you and you need to then manage it I think that's a really reasonable way to look at it yeah this has been great I uh I got a lot I mean we can we can continue to talk for hours about this stuff yeah um but I think you know for all of our our viewers our listeners if you're looking at your your building optimization You're Building performance spectral is a fantastic company to uh to speak with and their their team is enthusiastic and eager I guess it's a young team uh yeah Millennials and Generation Z I guess I'm uh uh I'm um I said way above average age uh I can say because it's interesting right we just did a uh an AP our assessor program yesterday we had a session and we talked about the generations you know because we're building buildings who are we building them for and then break down the the the um the kind of the characteristics of each of the generations and the the younger Generations man it's just it's all purpose you know it's you know they're willing to be paid less for more purpose and you see it and you see it coming out in their work and and they're driven and you see that at spectral which is really really cool indeed indeed so for our viewers just as a as a closing remark what do you hope for them in the next year what do you hope to to achieve as well for yourselves for for the next year yeah I really uh what I hope is that um uh our development goes on the page uh uh yeah we we want and that uh um yeah we connect as many buildings as uh as possible in a very efficient way really for our control uh module uh to just yeah I will get that that unnecessary usage down and optimize for uh for for climate so I really hope that uh uh well in in the coming months we we learn a lot of new clients with large portfolio where we prove what we can do in an extent expand within their uh portfolio so because let's get that unnecessary usage down absolutely absolutely thank you so much Jan you're welcome speak to you soon and uh and good luck yeah thanks for having me bye-bye