Hold the Phone!

Key Takeaways

[Music] hello and welcome to another episode of ecovery chicks the podcast about all things ecovery and legal Tech hosted by two gals who might skip dinner so long as they got a really big breakfast anyways we're your hosts that's Bri and that's Angie and today we're talking about mobile device data oo this is this is the one that always gets everybody's attention like what are you doing with my phone what do you mean I know so I'm sure this will be an interesting conversation but before we get to that what's this you're saying about skipping meals yeah I'm a chubby girl so I've been solo parenting a lot which means that like I only have to feed myself in a toddler and I've realized how hard I revert to single girl Angie eating habits when I don't have to provide for another adult mostly that is instead of eating dinner just snack on weird stuff for like an hour right as as opposed to making a meal I'm like yeah I'll put this on a cracker put that on a cracker like whatever well when my son was that age I would also find myself eating toddler food oh yeah lot of chicken nuggets down this colet I was like why am I eating veggie tots right now this is weird but yeah I know I'm totally with you and speaking of food by the way so are you into this whole pumpkin spice pumpkin everything that's going on like it's pumpkin everything explosion all over every social media that I'm want yes yes yes so not only that but one of my favorite fall activities is this is girl this is girl math for sure but I'm like if I go to the store and I buy one pumpkin every time I go to the grocery store it's less expensive than if I just bought 12 pumpkins up front I don't know whatever I'm not looking for feedback on that math by the way I just in so once it's like midt I just start accumulating pumpkin and it's like this two Monon long process are you using them for food purposes are you using them for decorative purposes decor decor okay who really eats like a whole big ass pumpkin those things are hard to break down I saw I did this once actually last time I carved a pumpkin won't be doing it again it's like five years ago but you can attach a pumpkin carving thing to a power drill oh and carve it out that way so you don't have to do it manually that's very smart So Pro tip for all of those who celebrate pumpkin season which it is I'm have to think about that I might relive some of my pumpkin carving days this Halloween hm I never thought about that well as much as I would love to talk about pumpkins all day I guess we should probably move this along because like bri said today we are talking about mobile device data so mobile devices are really integral to our personal and professional lives I I always feel really sort of like stuck up or Boomer is when I call them mobile devices anyways and these devices boom is like cellular devices is that the right maybe I feel like I'm just trying to help like a wannabe Brit you know it's my mobile oh your mobile my mobile okay anyways these mobile devices are turns out a gold mine of data and so here's what we're going to do today we're going to talk about the impact of these types of devices on ecovery we're going to talk about the challenges of collecting data off of them how those challenges interact with things like B IOD bring your own device policies and ecovery in general and then we're going to have a section where we have some hot takes on the future I mean this topic is becoming more and more important every day of course because we're all conducting business on our mobile devices it doesn't matter who you are or what business you're in you've had some mixing and mingling of your personal and business life on a mobile device and it's so funny I happen to be at a baby shower out of all places this weekend that's when of these co-ed baby showers and the guys were like laughing about how they use their business phones for personal and I'm like you can know that is such a bad idea do not do that at all you stupid idiot but I mean of course I pick on the guys but I know there's girls that do the same thing but oh yeah yes they were having a conversation they're like no this doesn't really happen our company's not sophisticated enough to get any data off this I'm like yes they are bro and you know what if your company can't do it they're gonna hire somebody that can so you should probably not do that you know what they call that they call that [ __ ] around and find out yeah exactly we have to get the bar chart out how much do you out or no it's a line graph sorry not a bar chart a line yeah yeah y yep total nerd okay any kind of internal investigation that you are a part of you a mobile device is likely going to be included even if you just happen to be an innocent bystandard because you know what if you're not crazy somebody around you and got you involved in this is crazy and they probably text you something that may be relevant or even if they didn't your legal council is going to want to prove that they did not so your phone will still be involved so don't think that you are too far away from any certain issue to have your device also involved in some Scandal but that's one of the reasons why this is important it freaks everybody out but they they really do raise some legal and ethical challenges for especially corporate law departments and businesses because there is that mixture of personal data which there of course there's privacy laws that protects you somewhat but you did agree whenever you did start working there that either you're using their device or you're using your own you're bringing your own device and you made some agreements on paper about what your company has access to so that can get really hairy depending on the bring your own device policy and the privacy laws but more about that here here in a moment in addition to the challenges that they raise there's also technical challenges and we'll talk about those like the passwords the PIN codes the iCloud access the the wiping apps the people that are in trouble and accidentally dropped their phone in the ocean all the things people doly accidental allegedly accidentally let's dig into it shall we let's talk about the types of mobile device data that are pretty common to litigation and then the challenges of collecting them and I'm going to start us off with the big one which is text messages um I'm also going to throw in some instant messaging apps in there so by instant messaging apps I mean things like WhatsApp signal slack that kind of thing teams Discord what have you and the challenge of collecting these types of communications and texts is that they can be ephemeral I mean how many people do you know that have their text set to Auto delete after 30 days or something like that how many people keep their WhatsApp or signal m Mees forever very few and so that's kind of why we call them ephemeral and they can also be encrypted you know signal WhatsApp those are end encrypted messages so you're going to have to break that encryption in order to get at them and so there are a couple of things that that kind of come to mind here for me if you're dealing with this type of data you got to act quickly number one because who knows if someone has their their text set to delete every seven days or something like that so you got to act as soon as you know about it and then number two you're probably going to have to use a specialized tool to collect these type this type of data a lot of people if you're using if you're on the corporate side and you're trying to collect from like a Google or a Microsoft there there might be a built-in tool or you might already have ecovery software but odds are whatever you're using for your other data sources isn't going to work for this so you're going to have to buy some sort of specialized tool and that can be quite costly and another problem can be not what you're doing on your device but the fact that there's a lot of different types of files that can be downloaded from your device some of those being things like photos and videos and audio files like the voicemail messages or other images that you're downloading those can be quite concerning because number one a lot of times they're not searchable so if you're dumping them into your review software you might not be able to say like hey murder Gun blood like you're not gonna be able to search for those things show me murder exactly you have to process that data in a way way that normalizes it and makes it searchable we'll talk about that here more in a moment also the other type of data or not just the other but another type of data that you can get off of a phone can be in the form of logs like call logs activity logs access logs of where maybe where somebody was or what applications they accessed think about the large amount of data that you can find associated with someone's phone not only is there a lot of data there but but there's a lot of data that's totally non-responsive like my my son's football game likely has nothing to do with the investigation at work right so large amounts of data in various formats and also normalizing the data um so we'll talk more about that here in a moment but I want to hit on another fun one which is GPS and location data so mobile devices that's like your phone your could be your watch you know whatever they are constantly tracking and storing location data you know every time you get a push notification on your phone it's like such and such app has been using your location in the background do you want to allow this to continue and most of the time I'm like sure whatever I don't care think about the number of times that's happened to you there are there is so much location data on your phone and it's often happening in the background without your awareness that can be things like your GPS coordinates your Wi-Fi network connections cell tower triangulation basically there's a wealth of location data on your mobile device that that is not to say it's easy to get to necessarily or easy to interpret because the granularity and accuracy of that data can really vary depending on the device and on its settings it can depend on the availability of these other sources like cell phone towers or a Wi-Fi network you know it can be dependent on these external factors as well and then also there's just a the sheer volume and size of this data can be really daunting I mean think about everywhere you've gone in the last week every place you've moved you're p your phone is pinging off of different towers and so that data is out there somewhere and now'll multiply that by like a longer time span and you can kind of begin to grasp the volume of data we're talking about and then like these other data sources that we've already chatted about you're probably going to need to use special tools this isn't stuff that just like you know you can go in and get off of your phone someone's got to extract it and then they've got to interpret it because it looks like all of these location data logs kind of look like gobbley G in their raw form and so you have to have somebody who can read gobbley somebody who can read gobbledygook is really one of the most key like assets you could have I wonder what that looks like in a resume I'm a gobbl deg reader fluent in gobble yeah well and some other things to consider and we kind of briefly mentioned this earlier what about all those apps that you have on your phone and if you're like my son you're downloading an app per second every day is what it feels like because he kind of has to get my my parental permission I was going to ask do you have controls and are you like miles stop it I know I'm like dear God how many of these you have to have anyhow there's these apps and so what they bring into the equation are of course they you know add on to the things that we've already said a ton of data a ton of data and weird formats that you don't know how to ingest because some of these apps weren't designed with ecovery mind believe that or not and you know with world doesn't revolve around e Discovery I it's really weird it really should so weird blows my mind every time I know I know that's a damn shame in some of these applications you may they may be in other countries there may be like privacy issues involved there may be special things that you have to do like through subpoenas or court orders or other types of permission that you might need to get that data from that application those applications don't always save data what how long did it go back by the time that that investigation or whatever it is that you're working on that you need this information falls into your lap that data may very well be gone also another thing to consider about these applications are the same thing that Angie just mentioned about having somebody who can analyze gyg you might need a forensics person or somebody with some expertise in order to make sense of what this jumbled up data is coming from an app and analyze it so that it makes sense with the rest of your investigation there's a lot of considerations here for those different apps and some of them are so unique and weird that it's literally the first time everybody anybody's everever thought about extracting data from them so it kind of feels like you're in the stone ages when you come across one of those guys but you know we're we're talking about a lot of the issues that we can have with mobile device data in general and I think it's really important to compare what makes mobile device data stand out and what makes it different than our traditional data sources oh that is a great thing to talk about also I'm sorry I've been petting my cat and I think some of his hair got in my mouth and so I think I understand what it's like to have a hair ball right now and I'm just trying to power through so must go on okay um anyways so traditional data versus these more modern data sources I feel like one of the biggest differences to my mind is just the volume and the variety of data like traditional data you know it's going to be kind of a uniform structure you kind of know what you're in for when you collect it and it's usually stored in some sort of centralized location whether that be on Prem or in the cloud it's usually there's a central Hub of info mobile data on the other hand this can be varied and dispersed so the data I mean think about how many apps you have on your phone each one of those apps is going to store data in a slightly different way some of it may be on your phone some of it may be with the app provider every app on your phone is its own special little snowflake each one of them is going to be its own special little challenge when you go to collect it yeah and when we talk about the kind of data that is found in both traditional data sources and on mobile devices there's differences in terms of you know the static and enduring qualities like Angie was just referring to when we have traditional data sources a lot of times those are well known like 0365 or box St or Google or whatever or fileshare Network shares those places are places we're used to getting data from and may even be places that we can preserve data in place before we ever collect data a lot of times mobile devices get collected in order to be preserved and nothing ever happens with them with traditional data sources you've got the constant reliability they frequently hit data sources you can preserve them in place they're easy to collect from and they also retain their metadata most likely the author names the last modified dates the file type it's just super helpful to help you call through and review that data so those are that's your traditional data sources mobile data on the other hand is often ephemeral so get all those apps that you're loading and at the same time you have to delete apps because you're done with that one that one's old and boring or maybe you're done with that one because that's where you had all your crazy conversations about the murder that you took place in I want you to create all hypotheticals in my life going forward I'm getting gruesome today I keep talking about murders and I was also listening to Metallica today like I think I might be angry inside somewhere I was jamming out to Enter Sandman when does that happen oh yes I was listening to like a true crime murder podcast this morning so fun so it's a very murdery Monday I think oh yeah so going back to mobile devices that's part of the isue isue the fleeting nature of not only the data but even the applications that are on that phone and what about the people that really do things on their phone like their murder Mondays like I was in taco Tuesdays and now we're having murder Mondays like it's getting really intense up in here but those who partake at murder Mondays they probably do want to purge their data all the time to cover the tracks those are a couple of differences there between your traditional data sources and your mobile data source but I know attorney on the line wants to speak about legal defensibility pick me pick me uh yeah I do want to talk about legal defensibility so when you are trying to get evidence admitted in a court of law it has to be admissible and that's a term of Art and it requires several different types of burdens of proof part of that is that showing the court that the way that you collected and preserved this data didn't do anything to to mess with its authenticity and so with traditional data the process for collecting preserving and admitting evidence is pretty well established there's case law on most of the on most of these data sources in every jurisdiction or your local rules might address it but with mobile data this type of data is new and it's rapidly evolving so courts are still developing those standards of admissibility what that means as a practical matter for legal teams trying to do this here and now without a good road map is that you got to be really meticulous about documenting your collection process and be prepared to educate the parties in court that might be the court itself it might be your opposing Council but you got to you got to know what you did and know why it works because you might be in a place where you got to educate other people and then one last thing I want to flag just before we move on is that there might be some privacy or security concerns here that don't really exist for traditional data sources traditional data you know there's pretty well established legal and Regulatory Frameworks but mobile data you're going to run into the same sort of problem there's kind of mixed use they newer sources and so it's just not as clear cut as some of that older stuff so okay let's talk a little in a little bit more detail about the challenges of collecting mobile device data I don't know Bri what do you think are some of the biggest challenges like from a technical standpoint so we've already talked about some of the challenges already in this episode but I feel like we're at the stage where you could start one of those flowcharts is that what the fancy word is but I'm talking about just considerations of next steps like what do we do from here say you're you're investigating a phone you're looking at the phone number one is the phone in good working order and it's undamaged yes or no if yes then move on to the next step which would be do you have the PIN code to said said phone yes or no if no seek help from a forensic advisor or your company siso or his security team or his or her security team so you can crack into that phone if yes carry on to the Next Step do you have your employees permission and their cooperation or the person's permission and cooperation if yes that's going to be really easy because you're either going to get assistance from them to download their data or you're going to have some sort of expert like we have some wonderful companies out there today that will be able to extract your data with the cooperation of your custodian or your employee or whomever's data it is with no problem you could also have a forensic expert take that device and image the whole dang thing and it's a lot easier when you have somebody's cooperation but if no then what do we do so then we are going to do things like do we need a subpoena do we need a court order who has this phone does the company have this phone um does the person have this phone is this phone a personal device is this a phone a company device you see there's like a mini layered onion approach to what do we do with this and then you've got questions of is it an Android is it an apple Androids are going to be a little bit harder to get in if somebody had well I can't even say that one's harder than the other they have special challenges but if somebody's attempted to keep you from their device it's going to be harder to get in it one way or the other if it's an apple you might have things like oh there's an iCloud account that's going to have a whole lot of other information in it is it appropriate for the company to be looking through all that information is there can you access that location so lots of different things to consider when you're talking about technical challenges with phones as a result you're going to likely need a wide variety of tools if you're doing this yourself if you're not doing it yourself you're going to want to have a lot of different Tools in your toolbox of people you can call for Fillin the blank example and I would suggest I mean this sounds silly but I would suggest working through some of these workflows in your head what like I work at a company we have a BYOD policy and we also have people that have mobile devices that are owned by the company okay what happens when I get one of each and then what's my workflow and who do I call because the worst thing is to have to create that on the Fly that is a terrible idea because on the Fly you're like what the heck is this well I don't even know we can do well I mean is there people at work here that can do this kind of thing well I don't even know a vendor like who what what's a vendor well who knows a vendor maybe my council's gonna know and how much is this going to cost so now I got a compare vendor like nobody wants to do that on the Fly Like have that route already planned ahead that is my tip for you data encryption is a huge one and that one you may need very specialized vendors but you may even need to have a vendor that works with your data security team sometimes it's like everybody has to put their noodles together to come up with the recipe for for getting into that phone then we think about other technical challenges as it relates to ecovery did we get a proper for chain of custody which that is a huge one guys do not forget the chain of custody do not forget to write down everything about where it was and the condition that you find it in including the PIN code if you can how much data are we getting off of this device and how do we handle it and how do we review this data in conjunction with everything else that we're reviewing for this investigation how do we prove up the authenticity was this data something that the employee said hey I'll help you with this I'm going to move it to my network share and then I'm going to move it to another folder and then I'm going to put it in your drive and then every time they moved it they changed the last modified date and they changed all the dates and times for all of the different messages that is absolutely useless that is not the kind of data collection that you want to be involved with and then you have of course we've mentioned this several times throughout today but you've got data loss and this is something as you're thinking through your work plan your workflow that you want to consider what is your legal responsibility what happens if you have a legal hold and somebody's been notified that they are involved in a legal hold and they don't realize their phone is part of the legal hold and they just decide like oh snap I think there's a some sort of murder Monday issue going down I know all about that I have it on my personal phone well they can't tell me to save that so shink I'm just going to delete it all and then they don't find out till you know three four weeks later when they have an interview with the legal department that they were supposed to have actually preserved that data because it wasn't clearly explained to them and the legal hold notice those are some of the challenges that we can have and I've touched a bit on admissibility but I know Angie's dying to get a little bit deeper there oh you know I love to talk admissibility kind of flaged this earlier but mobile data will often be challenged in court and particularly about authenticity and method of collection so authenticity is just like the evidence is what it purports to be for example mobile device data some jurisdictions some courts will allow you to just like take a screenshot of the texts and send that in and for whatever reason courts in that jurisdiction have said that's sufficient other jurisdictions on the other hand might require a higher burden of proof for example having someone actually come in and use a thirdparty software to extract the data from the phone and then render those text messages through that soft software so there are a number of different ways of getting at this data and it's going to be highly dependent on your court what your court has said and probably honestly the technological prowess of your judge point being though the courts are going to scrutinize pretty intensely whether data was collected in a legally sound Manner and so if you've got one of those if you're in one of those jurisdictions where there's this higher burden of proof of admissibility for these novel data sources you're really going to want to focus on that you're going to want to maintain a solid chain of custody and you might even need to get an expert to come in and talk about it speaking of experts forensic experts are huge in mobile data a couple things to be considerate of As you move forward with thinking about forensics and mobile devices number one there are tools out there on the market today where you can purchase the tool and you yourself can extract data forensically from mobile devices when you do that that you need to make sure that number one you have a tool that will forensically protect your data as it is being extracted in the immiscible way that Angie was just referring to meaning you want to have a chain of custody you want to make sure that all of your data is secure in some sort of container file or the like so that it can't be moved around it can't be manipulated in any way and you have preserved all the auditing tra on the back end so you can easily go prove up in a court of law if you need to yes your honor this is the device that we speak of and this is how the extraction was done if you feel uncomfortable doing that yourself as a company then stop go get an expert because it ain't worth it I'm telling you right now it is not worth it you might as well get an expert who does this every day who can say without a shadow of a doubt and they can say on a witness stand this is the data that we speak of your honor and this is how it was forensically and safely collected the other thing is consider what you actually need from a device do you actually need a full forensic image from a device meaning I need to know all the times that the phone was turned off and on and maybe where it was and was it at Starbucks and was it at McDonald's and was it at the house and was it at work do we need to know all that information do we need to know all the temp files and all the other system system updates and things of that nature is that important to us or we simply just trying to figure out if this there was any text messages about pumpkins or hairballs or murder Mondays so maybe maybe that's what all that there is and that can completely change the method in which you decide to collect your data the other thing is is going to your forensics expert make sure you're working with somebody who is happy to also allow you to have some analytics performed on your data now is worse than going to a forensic vendor and saying hey I need to image this phone because we're having this huge investigation and I need to know if Sally text Bob and if they actually did something wrong and so the vendor says sure here is just random log files with some report that has very highly technical forensic speak on it that you don't understand and reports that you can't dump into your review platform and there's messages that are in a format that you can't even understand exactly what they're saying that is absolutely not helpful when you're trying to you know review data as part of a large litigation so you want to have you want to work with a vendor who is used to ecovery and investigations and ecovery tools we want to make sure we're working with somebody who can not only give us the report that that can also sit down and say hey look this is overall what I'm seeing or if you're trying to find this type of data this is where you're going to really dig for it and how you're going to dig for it and how it will make sense to your attorneys or whoever you're trying to explain it to the judge this is one of those if you can if you can be The Interpreter of go gobbley g for everyone it's a very valuable skill set and I do not say that in joke I mean the term itself is joking but really the idea of it is not joking at all because that person is the most valuable person on the team and when you are that person if you're the forensics expert or if you're the ecovery person or whoever whatever your role is is if you're the gobbley cooker the gobbley cooker you're doing a great service for your team the other thing that's nice about working with a forensic expert is that they will hold on to that data so that it's nice safe and sound it's not somewhere on your network or in your tool only so that if one of your people on your team I won't name names goes into that data source and they completely Jack it up you're like oh that was our only copy of that data so now that's not admissible all right enough about forensics I love forensics it's super interesting and that is where all the murder Mondays situations are found but something that we talked about earlier today I have a very strong belief in having a great bod policy in tell me more Bri I know I'm speaking your love language now but having a BYOD bring your own device policy that's comprehensive and that people understand and they remember getting is super important do you want to talk about that Angie yeah sure there are a couple of reasons that having a strong a robust BYOD policy is going to really serve you well one is that this whole BYOD phenomenon especially postco has really blurred the lines between personal and professional data you need a clear policy for how you're dealing with that and then it also complicates data collection in some ways because like bri said earlier you know we really only want to Target the relevant work rated data and so photos of like her son's football practice on the weekend or like what funny thing my cat did yesterday you know those probably aren't going to be relevant to business related litigation we want to make sure that we're navigating those privacy Waters with some adeptness and you can often spell that out in your BYOD policy I will also say like custodians when you tell someone and and I get this like I would feel this way but custodians sometimes if you ask them for their personal phone there's kind of there's an ick factor to that right like I don't want to give my work my personal phone because it's got all my personal stuff on it and so you want to be able to navigate that interpersonal relationship with some sensitivity to those concerns too there are ways to mitigate this all of these one that is one of my personal faves is an MDM soft Ware solution or a mobile device management software solution which is where your employer will put a software program on your phone like an app or whatever and it will allow them to access certain parts of your phone each MDM is different and it'll depend on the settings that your organization has decided to implement but basically what it does is it limits the window this is going to be a really weird metaphor we're we're closing the drapes on the window of your phone so that your it Department whoever is collecting it can only see a small picture they can't see everything that's on your phone so I don't know Bri do you have any other kind of mitigation strategies yeah I mean this is going to kind of summarize a couple things that were already briefly mentioned earlier but like Angie was just talking about the bring your own device policy have a strong clear bring your own device policy and I would recommend not only having that as part of your onboarding procedure for your employees but clearly post it somewhere or multiple places in fact I really love having some sort sort of compliance portal or legal hold dashboard that's available for your employees where they can go and see all their legal holds but also see things like what is my bring my own device policy what are my where where is my legal hold training like all that is super important because that is actually going to take some of the drama out when you go and try to collect that from the employee like bro it's not just me it's like an actual rule here okay I didn't come up with policies I'm just trying to follow them we love to be able to blame them of course or need scape you need a good scapegoat yeah and so I also just kind of open the door for the next thing I was going to mention which is have a clear legal hold notice make sure when you are issuing your legal hold notices that you clearly state in a way that people understand your phone data cannot be purged don't get crazy and try to cover Your Tracks like we're watching you make sure you make that clear in that notification that way you're covering yourself in the in the instance that somebody actually did participate in Murder Monday and tries to delete their messages have an action plan I talked about this a little bit earlier you know think ahead what's going to happen if and think about in in the action plan you're going to want to spell out some things already who are my vendors that I can call on and in what circumstances would I call on those vendors what tools can I use and and what circumstances would I use those tools what could I actually get off of one of our company devices what could I be expected to get off of an Android or an Apple device what's even possible for me what's legal for me sit down and talk to data security sit down and talk to your attorneys talk to your eisc Discovery whoever wherever you are in the world of these roles talk to everybody else get on the same page about it and it would be even better if you come up with a written action plan wo that would be amazing but wow yeah that's very proactive so how very oldest oldest daughter of you oh my God you know I have plans they're coming out of my ears and your action plans are probably getting getting revised every time you use them if you're like me oh we're not doing that again no oh absolutely got to change the color coding on this that's right it well every time that somebody makes a sucker out of you you're like you can fool me once but you can't twice never again so have your toolbox ready to go if you want to have applications in house and that and maybe that you maybe you do and that's fine but understand who needs to be performing that workflow how you can make sure that it's very secure what your limitations are in house with that those applications know what you're able to do and what you cannot do for example if you have ecovery you know technicians or it professionals who are helping you collect data off of a phone make sure they understand legally speaking this is where you can tread and this is where you cannot and maybe you can go to these other places but you need to have permission first so just make sure everybody's in the same playing field the other thing is as you're putting together these plans people that often get left out are the people who are actually either onboarding employees and giving them their devices in the first place maybe there's certain things that you want to lock down so they can't do it and they should be locked down from the GetGo like that would be amazing or people that are in charge of change management Angie needs a new phone so I'm going to change out her old phone what do we do then making sure that we don't wipe Angie's old phone making sure that Angie's new phone has all the same security protocols that we intend for her to have and the person that handles the terminated employees devices when HR gets involved which it might be an HR person or when it help desk person gets involved which could be them needs to know bro you cannot just throw that in the trash or send it back to Verizon you want to have already a plan in in process for that so that's the mitigation strategies I can think of and I'm sure there are smar people out there than me that have many more tips and you know what guys if you ever listen to our podcast and you're like dude you forgot like 10 things that are so important comment on our LinkedIn page or email us I would love to have a conversation about these things but what are some merging Trends and Innovations o I love this question I really think that bio metric data and wearables are going to be a big deal going forward and we've already seen this in some of the cases like I think we've talked about the Fitbit murder and there have been like some other wearable devices that have produced some really critical data in some pretty high stakes lawsuits so I feel like that's going to be kind of a big thing especially because more and more people seem to be adopting the this technology you know think about everyone you know who has a smartwatch an aura ring a Fitbit a a whoop which I learned what those are recently there it is I mean all of these devices are taking biometric data of and about you and so I feel like those are going to come into play more and more sometimes I wonder if it's going to be like a built-in lie detector you know if we're gonna stop using polygraphs and start using people's wearable devices my gosh anyways but isn't it scary but then I also thought there's probably some privacy concerns with your biometric data too think I mean like pacemakers think all these like smart devices that we have in and around our bodies I feel like that's just going to be a really fun legal landscape depending on who you are CA I'm because I'm a freak and I think those things are really fun no they're super interesting but I would hate to be the one that's being analyzed I get shamed by my devices sometimes sometimes it's like girl get your life in order when are you ever going to sleep I I think in terms of emerging Trends and innovation I I can already tell within the ecovery industry that there is a impatience that is getting stronger and stronger with the fact that it's so damn hard to get data off of devices sometimes and it's also an area where now eisc Discovery and forensic people have you know all these Blurred Lines and forensic folks are also impatient with this why is it so hard to get data from a damn iPhone if we're going to use an iPhone do all half of our work we need to get get at it just like we would a PC and this is ridiculous so I think that there's a major impatience there which is making technology like software companies step up their game big time in two different ways one in terms of the accessibility especially accessibility that does not have a friendly custodian on the other end because that's the hardest part when you don't have the person who the phone belongs to helping you get the data it's really hard sometimes to get that and the other part is from the review standpoint the more eisc Discovery side of the coin software companies are stepping up to the plate thinking about hey when you get a report like a forensic report from a device and you get data from a device forensically how can we ingest it into your review tool so that it's meaningful to you to consider what the rest of whatever it is that you're reviewing for this matter so those are two things I see in in terms of the future I hope that this was a helpful episode you guys I feel like it's more scary than we offered Solutions but no I think I think that's so interesting and I love your point about like software needs to catch up to to where we are in the world because I think we're also sometimes there's this really big overarching question of who owns this data if you've got a BYOD policy in place it might specify who owns it but if you don't who owns your work rated data on your phone do you own it does your company own it whose job is it to produce that and if the company owns the data and they can't get to it physically like we're still I mean then you're running up against sanctions right for not collecting data that physically you couldn't collect but you were legally obligated to and that's a really weird world that we're living in too well and I mean maybe we should play the song Blurred Lines after this like I don't know but no very problematic very very I'm just kidding but speaking about Blurred Lines this is an area that it's hard to Define because a lot of things that happen in an investigation happen off the clock you know if you think about it if somebody's stealing people or stealing things or doing naughty things with each other or themselves whatever that's maybe a story for another day you do you boo but it's probably going to be off the clock and it's probably going to be on your own device and so then it gets real personal real fast and under understanding where those lines begin and end in terms of a company I think is super important so the more case law we can have the better to help us Define those lines love that well folks I think that brings us to the end of our show thank you so much for listening don't forget to subscribe wherever you get your pots and give us a festar review please tell your friends family and co-workers about us but only the cool ones and as always please hit us up on LinkedIn or at our website which is ediscovery chicks.com with your thoughts questions and drink recommendations until next time bye bye [Music]