Ep 11: AI-First or AI-Enabled?

[Music] Hello everybody and welcome back to another episode of Future Contracts. I have a very special guest with me today, Chrissy Wolf, who I'm sure many of you already know, but Chrissy, it's great to have you here today. >> Thank you. It's great to be here. Looking forward to our chat. >> Yeah, me too. Um Chrissy, for those of you who don't know you, can you just give us a little intro? Yes, sure. So, I'm Chrissy Wolf. Uh, I am a lawyer, but I wear many hats. So, I'm now a partner at Nexa in clinical negligence and cosmetic injuries. Uh, I also have my own consulting business called Lab Consultancy. Uh, I also do quite a lot on social media and um various other strings to my bow uh including events, public speaking, writing, uh vlogging, all sorts of things. So yeah, all sorts of things related to the to the legal industry. >> Amazing. Yeah, you're one of the OGs of this space, I think. I mean, I I've known you since I first started or have heard always heard about you and yeah, you're just lovely to meet in person as well. And so I'm really excited about today. And as you said, you do wear many hats. Um, but what would you describe your current mission as? What are you focus? >> Yeah. So, so currently, as I mentioned, I am wearing many hats. So the focus is my legal practice at the moment. So I have a litigation practice with Nexa which is a platform firm. So effectively I run my own consultancy practice off their platform. So I'm self-employed um have an independent practice. Um and as is normal with the consultancy arrangement. So whatever I bring in, they take a percentage of that to effectively cover the the umbrella backend things like compliance and insurance etc. So I'm running my practice from Nexa. I've been doing that for just over a year. Um really really enjoying that. Before that I was at Owen Mitchell for about eight years um in their serious injury uh international team, international serious injury and clinical negligence team. Um so that was quite an interesting journey. I had uh doing all sorts of different types of weird and wonderful accidents abroad and particularly medical tourism sort of the cosmetic surgery side which was just booming um when I first joined the firm or starting to boom anyway. So I sort of developed this subniche in in surgical claims particularly cosmetic surgery um which is sort of what I've carried forward now into Nexa alongside a host of other types of of clinical negligence claims. So it's quite a broad practice. My sort of super specialism is is within cosmetic and aesthetic claims. So that's sort of my primary focus at the moment. Uh looking at expanding that practice. I'm actually hiring at the moment which is exciting. Uh and one of the cool things about Nexa which is the reason why I joined Nexa over any other of the consulting platforms is that they actually allow you to build your own brand um using their platform. So that is in progress which I'm really excited about. So that's coming very soon. uh and sort of the premise and the mission of of that brand is is primarily going to focus around clinical negligence claims but also around the healthare system because there are a lot of issues with the healthare system and yes holding people to account is part of what improves that system and that's why I'm so passionate about it but there are other things that that can be done around that to improve the healthare system and sort of reduce the number of medical mistakes that we're experiencing in the UK and across other countries as well. I work internationally. Um, so it's kind of a global mission really in terms of looking beyond just holding those to account and actually looking at ways that we can improve the system through campaigning, working with governments, also through technology. That's a huge aspect of of what I'm doing at the moment. Sort of twofold aspects of technology. One, how we can use technology to improve the healthare system. Also secondly, how we can use technology to improve the legal practice from the point of view of driving better value for clients, but also a better working environment and just a more enjoyable job for the team I want to build to get rid of a lot of that leg work and actually so we can really focus on kind of what we're passionate about and making a difference and and helping clients and really being that that value ad rather than just doing a lot of the leg work behind the scenes. So huge kind of emphasis on technology at the moment and looking at how that can can really make a difference to you know to both employee and and client experience. >> Can we talk a bit more about that? So I'm I'm really interested in the space of firms, service providers that are using technology to um to improve the way that they service their clients. What exactly are you doing there? Yeah. So, it's quite interesting because I I'm really enjoying being a startup at the moment because I have a blank canvas really, which is great. So, I I'm starting my processes really for the first time and I'm starting them from a kind of, you know, technology first principle because I don't have lots of staff. I don't have to kind of worry about reworking those processes and potentially kind of being too efficient and having to, you know, redistribute people. it's much easier and much more fun actually coming at it from let's start from this rather than let's having to unpick everything and redesign it. Um so I I'm really looking at fundamentally where where the best use of the human value is versus the technology value. So for me because I my clients are in most cases very severely injured and quite often psychologically traumatized. My best use of my time is actually spending time with them and actually doing that side of it. And clients do want that. They do want that support and they do want that relationship because they're dealing with physical and emotional trauma which is quite niche which is not the case with all all legal practices and all sectors but with my sector there's a real kind of need for the human element on that side of things and also because a lot of them are not necessarily sophisticated users of of legal services. I'm not dealing with businesses here. I'm dealing with people in their personal capacity actually. They're not as familiar with what goes on behind the scenes and then don't necessarily need to know as as much of that side of things. they're more interested in the kind of human human connection. So, I'm trying to use my time to focus mainly on that side of things and actually be as efficient as I can kind of behind the scenes taking care of that side of things. So, the operational side so that really I'm I'm making the best use of my time by being in person with the clients and because I'm a soul founder at the moment actually I want to be as efficient as possible because I I want to free up my time. I don't have lots of staff to delegate to. So, I have quite a big pressure to be efficient. it's, you know, it's be efficient or, you know, lose business, lose money, lose clients effectively. So, I it's not a choice for me at the moment. Uh, you know, it's something that I I was really fortunate that when I launched the brand, I had a lot of inquiries and a lot of clients very quickly. So, I actually had to find a way to to to serve those clients efficiently um without having a huge kind of staff, you know, without having a huge workforce. So that kind of forced me into a position to look at how um you know how I can be as efficient as possible and actually and actually kind of do do things I need to do to grow the business without having to go on a massive hiring spree which I I haven't done. So I mean obviously it's it's quite a niche area of law. So I don't do loads and loads of contract review for example. Um what I do do is quite a lot of drafting of documents. So actually, you know, I'm using processes now where a lot of those processes are uh fundamentally automated. So actually kind of drafting the documents I need to draft. Um I have templates for a lot of those now um which are automatically drafted. So I can now just go in and literally just look over them and amend the details I need to amend rather than drafting from scratch. So that was a huge part of the process which took a lot of time. Uh, and actually I've worked with we work with um we use a Leap case management system at at Nexa. Um, I've previously been a real big fan of Cleo and I I love Cleo as well. Uh, and that's actually the kind of one that I wanted. But at with Nexa, they were using Leap. So I've learned to use Leap and actually Leap is is also a really good system and they've got a system called Law Y which is pretty good for for document drafting um, which is is really helpful. So, I've been doing a lot of that behind the scenes, really kind of putting off hiring for as as long as I've needed to. I'm now in a position where I do want to hire somebody because actually that human element now does need to be spread across multiple people because I that still requires my in-person time and actually I'm at a point now where I do need to share that responsibility with someone else. But actually, it's it's not so much the behind thes scenes work that needs the extra person. It's the actual kind of client-f facing work which I still think for my area of law is is so so important. And I I think that's really going to be the key to any business is getting that human to to technology ratio right. And I think that's going to be different for every single client in in every single sector because some clients really don't want to deal with the lawyer. They just want it all to get done behind the scenes and you know they feel like it's taking up too much of their time to be dealing with the lawyer in person. Other clients are the the opposite end of the spectrum and actually want that reassurance and want that touch point and that human connection. So it's never going to be a one-sizefits-all approach. I think, you know, I've I've taken the view that my clients really benefit from a lot of human contact time and that's that's where I I want to add the most value and that's where the sort of the humans in my business are going to come into their own. I don't need them so much for the operational side and I don't need them for the behind the scenes work because I you know I'm trying to make that as efficient as possible but what I want is is great humans. Um so that's really the kind of most important part right now. >> I love that. So you've so in terms of kind of going about this and your approach, you've you've deciphered what's scalable and what's not and then you focused on the scalable parts to automate those first and then hire for the things that are unscalable, which is a huge element of any legal profession. All right, if you're doing conveyancing, then maybe your customer doesn't really want to talk to you for ages about formalities and they just want the thing done because they consider it almost bureaucratic. Um but then when it comes to areas where there is that what you're describing, you know, your area is so human and there's so much complexity around how they're um dealing with what it is that's happened to them that requires your support that you do need to to to deploy that that human element and that's never going to go away. >> Yeah, I I think that's right. And as I said, every every every niche is different and every type of client is is different. But, you know, I've been working with these sorts of clients for for over a decade now. And they do really benefit, you know, particularly the sort of higher value, really catastrophically injured client really do kind of prefer that human touch point and and need that. And that is the difference between, you know, you and another firm is if you can provide that service to them. So, I think it's definitely a case- by case basis, but I do have some of the opposite end of the spectrum who actually just, you know, they're quite happy to be updated by email and they don't want to have those conversations. You know, they're still working, they're still busy, and that's fine. So, we adapt accordingly. Um, but certainly for my area of work, I would say it leans more towards the human element from the actual sort of client facing side. >> Yeah. Um, you you wrote a post on LinkedIn about uh the volume one humans also hallucinate and I loved that post because it really resonated with me. Can you just talk to us a bit about the the kind of the backdrop to that post and um what you meant? >> Yeah. So, I mean there's there's been so much talk about AI recently, you know, is it going to replace us? How dangerous is it? How much can we rely on it? Uh and a lot of kind of scaremongering around it. um which I understand you know at the end of the day they know law is you know it's it's a regul highly regulated profession and generally speaking we have to be quite risk averse because of that you know and that and it's it's regulated for a reason I I think when it comes to a lot of the things that I I've seen um with with AI I think that the particularly the point around the hallucination was people saying that AI will never replace us because it's it's unreliable and it hallucinates h and you know I I think what we're dealing with now really is it we're dealing with really early stage AI or generative AI particularly you know we are in very early volumes uh and actually what's to come if we look at kind of compared to when we launched the first iPhone for example how quickly that's gone from the very first iPhone where the very first app was the I don't know if you remember this it was it was called I beer I think it was called I beer and literally all it was was you know you had like a full cup of beer and you tilted it and it emptied that was that was the first app that there was on on an iPhone. Uh and you think of how far we've come since then and how quickly that's evolved into what mobile phones are and what smartphones are now. You know, that's the sort of progression if not you know much quicker that we're looking at in AI. So the fact that it currentlyates it's not a reason to believe that it will never be as you know as reliable as as we are as lawyers in terms of our research capability and the answers that we're able to produce. So I think kind of turning a blind eye to it and saying oh it will never be as good is is not the right approach you know because it's going to evolve and the volume on humans is you know I think that the comment I made was you know as as humans you know when we're little when we're young we also hallucinate we also say things that didn't happen uh but we grow up and we become adults and and we refine and we learn and that's exactly what's going to happen with with AI. So I don't think it's right to just dismiss it on the basis that it's never going to be as reliable as as our brains. I think there's, you know, a lot of evidence to suggest it will actually be more reliable without the human error side. There's a lot of human error which comes with being human and actually a lot of that can actually potentially be evened out by by AI. So I think there's, you know, a lot of reasons suggest it may be more reliable than we are in in the future. So I I think there's a there's a lot of attitudes are kind of dismissive of its capabilities. Uh, and I I don't think we're we're anywhere near being replaced. But I do think we need to respect its capabilities and not kind of be so so in our own egos about being a lawyer that, you know, we think that we are un, you know, we can't be replaced by it because I think there's there's a good chance that not not every single aspect of being a lawyer can be replaced, but a but a great deal of it can. Uh, and I think we just need to be alive to that and it's better to get ahead of that than to be in denial around that. Yeah, I do see some really visceral responses to AI by usually more senior lawyers to be honest. Um, what do you think is threatening them? What what why do you think they're having this visceral response to this? >> I think it's a combination of things. I mean, it it's, you know, it's obviously rooted in a, you know, in a fear of, you know, potentially what could happen and, you know, losing their livelihoods. A lot of times senior lawyers have dedicated their entire lives to being lawyers and actually that is their entire identity, their entire purpose and actually something that threatens to potentially take that away or or change that is you is naturally going to to spark fear and I think there is I think there is also some some ego around it as well in terms of you know how a lot of lawyers think you know how much we've had to study how much we've had to learn and actually you know no machine could ever possibly replace my brain and everything that I've done to achieve the status I've achieved. Uh, and I I I think that's that's not necessarily, you know, the best way to to look at it in terms of those aren't really the facts of the situation. You know, both of those things are come come from emotion really, rather than looking at the logical capabilities of what this tool can do and actually what clients want from lawyers. There was the great great quote from from Richard Suskin years ago which is you know what what clients really want is solutions to problems and currently lawyers are the best way we have to get to those solutions but that's not to say that we always will be you know fundamentally we are often a middleman between client and solution and I think what AI has the capacity to do is take out a lot of middlemen and sometimes you know and a lot of the time we should be adding value and I think frankly if we are adding value that's where we're not going to be replaced but it's where we are just acting as that middleman and we're not actually adding additional value. That's where the problems potentially arise. >> Yeah. I mean, how much of a barrier to the adoption of new ways of working do you think the fact that lawyers identify as lawyers um play? What what kind of role do you think that plays? Because if you're doing marketing, you don't necessarily identify as a make it an intrinsic part of your identity and who you are. So there are some other professions that I can think of that are like that like doctors for example. They might really associate their their self-worth and their value with being a doctor. Same with lawyers. How how problematic? >> It's it's a it's a really good point actually and I think you're absolutely right. I think comparing it to something like marketing where effectively your job is to market a business. So actually whatever whatever is the most effective way to do that is the way that you do that if it's using AI tools etc because your job is to provide that service but you're right we have this identity where we're not just providing a service we are we are that service you know that is that is our core being and I think that's where potentially it is then difficult to start looking at how we do things differently because we're so used to being kind of the most fundamental we are used to being the fundamental person in that process so we can't we can't see outside of that we can't look the process without the person and I think actually we have to be able to do that. We have to be able to take ourselves outside of it and say this is the service we are providing. How can we do that better rather than looking at how do we you know how do we make ourselves better or how do you know we have to take ourselves out of that and look at what we're actually doing. And I think that's where AI first firms that's where they're different and they really are doing that. They're looking at the solution and the problem first and actually saying if we had to step out of that process entirely. Fine. That's a really an the difference between having an AI first mindset and an AI first business and an AI enabled business. And actually a lot of what a lot of law firms are looking to do or are doing uh is is effectively akin to being AI enabled. They are using AI to make existing processes more efficient rather than actually change processes and actually change the delivery model from scratch. And I think fundamentally it's it's the firms that are going to be able to do that completely change how they deliver services which are going to to to really excel in in certain sectors. It's not that you know there's not a one-sizefits-all approach, but I think that's fundamental difference between being AI first and AI enabled. >> Yes. Yes. I love that answer. And you've been quite outspoken about the barriers that the younger generations or Gen Z or even now Gen Alpha as they as they come into the workforce and how they face barriers when they're trying to get into a profession that just does not invol evolve quickly enough. >> What are they telling you that they need that firms just are not providing? >> It's I mean it's a it's a big issue and I I think it's not specific things. It's fundamentally that the issue with the legal profession is it's kind of steeped in elitism and it's been so kind of it's been so defined in this hierarchy and actually how how the legal profession works is you know a it's incredibly difficult to get into I perceived as this kind of un you know this sort of unattainable thing to become a lawyer which then sort of creates this pressure for young people around how they're going you know creates the scarcity mindset which again sort of creates this you know this tension among young people. It's also kind of you know it's the way the legal profession is is marketed is you know it's elitist. It's for the absolute best of the best and particularly kind of the barristers profession when we look at the people that are in that profession still. It's it's it's it's really lacking in in diversity and it's still a very much an elitist profession or at least that's how it looks from the outside. And I think a lot of that creates a barrier for people who want to access it because first of all they think well I'm never going to be good enough to access that and then that's that's proven by looking at how difficult it is to secure entry into the profession. uh and then it's seen by like let's look at people who were at the top of the profession and actually that's not very diverse either at at really at the top level and actually that all of those things really act as kind of deterrence for young people who want to pursue a career in that historically I think previous generations our generations kind of saw that as a challenge and saw that as something to aim for you know look at they you know we want to be there we want to be them we want to prove that we can do this and actually you know in our generation the perils of that were not really spoken about. You know, we just saw people in these positions, but we never heard their stories. We didn't hear about mental health. We didn't hear about the impacts on their lives. And actually, we just saw this as the kind of, you know, crowning glory that we want to aim for. But I think the difference with this generation is they now kind of know the raw facts of that. You know, there's people talking openly about mental health. There's people online, you know, myself included, saying actually it's really not worth sacrificing your life for for this. Uh, and I think that's really and the data around that which is now far more accessible to this generation coming through because they're digital natives and they have all this information that we we didn't have. That's really putting people off. I think you know when they look at the stats from law care they put together a lot of stats on mental health and actually you know when you've got people actually putting together the numbers and you know how it really looks on paper you're getting paid this much but actually you're you know all of your time is taken up with this job and you have no time to spend that money and actually really it's not the best way because now there's 25 million ways you can make 100k a year you know because that's the essence of kind of the internet you know of like you know e-commerce etc. there's so many different ways that you can make money now. Whereas we didn't have any of that, you know, we had these are the professions, you know, be a lawyer, be a doctor, be an accountant, you know, we didn't have any of these other options. You those were considered the best. I'm probably showing my age a bit here, but but those were considered, you know, those were the good professions, you know, and that and those are the ones that earn the money. Whereas now, you know, absolutely it's it's not, you know, being a lawyer is is not the way to earn the most amount of money necessarily. You know, when you break down the figures instead of, you know, launching a tech business or, you know, there are so many ways that you can make that money that are are far more attractive in terms of work life balance and stress, etc., that now it's I think it's, you know, that's really starting to break through. That sort of illusion of this being where you want to aim for on the top of the top profession is is now breaking down. And I I think really law firms can't rely on that anymore. They can't rely on that kind of overwhelming popularity that they've historically had as being like everybody wants to be a lawyer because it's such a pre prestigious profession. This generation just aren't really as focused and that this is a generalization but you know they're not as focused on the prestige. They're not as focused on you know this is a prestigious profession to be a part of. they're much more focused on the the practicalities and the reality of life and what that job entails. And you know, we're seeing that and they are voting with their feet on that in terms of the fact that, you know, they're not standing for, you know, that we've seen huge amounts of of resignations, particularly among kind of the more junior generation, people who don't just don't want to be lawyers. You know, I think I can't remember what the percentage was, but most a a large percentage of people who wanted to be lawyers didn't want to be managers. you know, they don't want that responsibility, which is insane to us because, you know, our pinnacle was absolutely want to climb the ladder, get to the top, get to the top. But actually, a lot of a lot of juniors who do want to be lawyers don't want to get to the top actually. They just want to do it. They want to learn the skills, they want to enjoy it, and then they either just want to stay as lawyers or they want to get out and do something else. You know, there's not this kind of climb to reach partnership like there was in our generation where we just saw that as the shining light. And I actually think that's great. I think that's great that they're looking at the realities of it and they're looking at the numbers and they're looking at the stats around mental health and they're looking at how that, you know, how that salary actually breaks down in real life. And I think that's that's great. We just didn't do that. We just didn't have that information. We just kind of accepted what we were told. Um, but I think law firms are going to have to change. You know, they're really going to have to offer something more than that now, which which I think is a positive thing. >> Yeah. And you've called out firms banning AI in training contract applications. and what kind of message does that send to these people? So, it's not just about work life balance is als it's also the work environment and how alien it is to a person who manages their whole life on their phone with a few clicks. Yeah, it's it's interesting because yeah, I mean I've seen firms who effectively say you're not allowed to use AI in your training contract applications and that that's bizarre to me because AI is going to be a hugely relevant skill and I don't think any law firm really denies that given where we are now that it's going to be a hugely relevant skill and actually allowing you know students to use that as part of their application. You are effectively testing that skill, you know, it should be tested the same way as anything else. If you use AI badly, it's exactly the same way as using anything else badly. If you copy and paste your cover letter from chat GPT, it's exactly the same as copying and pasting your application form with the wrong firm name on it and you will be downgraded in exactly the same way. I I'm seeing it now. I'm advertising for a job at the moment and I can absolutely see when they've copied and pasted from chat GPT. I don't I don't mind because I'm I'm testing them and it for me it shows who they are. So, it's an easy way for me to say, okay, you know, that's that's not what I want. And I think law firms should look at it the same way and say, you know, if you've actually got a candidate, if you're allowing candidates to use AI, you can really see the ones who are using it well because it will be virtually undetectable and the ones who aren't. And actually, that's that should be part of your criteria realistically because it's an important skill to have. So, you know, I see it as you should absolutely use it and use it as part of your criteria. >> Yeah, agree. like take the M dashes out for example because no one uses them and it feels unnatural and it feels AI but and that's not just to say do it performatively make sure that your communication is relatable to the other person who is consuming that and if you don't understand the importance of that or you don't understand how to use AI in the right way then that's that is that's an insight into that person's capabilities and their suitability for your firm because when they come into your firm you can't or maybe some still are doing this but they're not going to say never use AI. You want them to use AI. >> Exactly. And actually testing that they can already use it well on their application forms is a great starting point because actually if you don't know then actually the first experience they have they're going to copy and paste something into a client letter that's going to look like that. So actually, you'd rather have you'd rather test people's abilities and actually know that they've already refined that skill and they know how to use it and they know how to generate a template and then amend that template with their own experience and their own voice and their own research. You know, that's that's a really important skill the same way as drafting any cover letter would be. So I I think it's a really good test to actually let people let people use it and and showcase how well or not well they can. >> Yeah. Yes. Um, how do you think firms need to rethink readiness when it comes to assessing junior talent, especially in a world that is is going to be very AI powered? Are they not key to their future because they come armed with this? To your point, they're digital natives. So, don't we want to hone that and and bring it forward into our firms? >> Totally. Totally. I mean I think I think readiness I think firms really have to look at skills rather than experience. I mean I think experience is is one thing but actually experience in an environment which is going to be you know very dissimilar to the environment that they're actually going to be working moving forward because actually frankly a lot you know if they've had experience in any kind of traditional law firm is actually probably going to be quite different to how law firms are going to operate in the future. But I I think actually recruiting for kind of skills and talents in terms of you know adaptability, agility, curiosity, those are going to be really really important because I I think the junior generation are going to be vital in in real transformation. I was listening to um I actually watching a Tik Tok video the other day um with Rory Southerntherland. Do you know who Rory Southerntherland is? And he was talking about an analogy um about how much people value autonomy. And he talked about the fact that he booked a hotel room recently uh in America. And when he went onto the booking page, the booking page looked completely different to other hotels in terms of it actually had the opportunity to option to book whether you wanted a room that was near to the swimming pool or near to the gym, for example. and how that was a complete rethink on the traditional page and and they were charging a premium for those things which they never could have charged a premium for before one they never have charged a premium for before because it's just your standard you know basic deluxe etc but no one ever thought to do that and you know I I really thought that that is why Gen Z is so necessary in in law firms because actually as lawyers to use that metaphor we only see the the room page the way we've always seen it you know we only see there are so many processes when we've been working for 5, 10, 15 years, there are certain processes which are so ingrained that we can't see that they are even part of the transformation process because they're not in our consciousness as something that needs changing. You know, a booking page. If you were to start a hotel tomorrow and look at your booking page, you would just you would construct it the same way as you've constructed every other booking page. You might you might think of some things that might be different. Maybe your branding is different. Maybe your marketing is different because those are things that are in our consciousness as things that need transforming. But there's so many processes that are not in our consciousness because they are so ingrained that we wouldn't even look to change them. And I think that's why Gen Z are so vital because they don't have those ingrained processes. They haven't seen 100,000 booking pages. They're looking at this process brand new from scratch. And they have this ability to say actually, you know, why wouldn't we construct it like this? which is so valuable and it's going to be so vital really when we're really looking at changing these processes from day one because they don't have that ingrained knowledge. You know, they haven't seen a hundred versions of this that are all the same. They're just starting and saying, "Why don't we do it like this?" And I think that is that is going to be so necessary and they really need to have a voice in that process rather than a typical system where they don't get a voice until, you know, they're applying for partner or something. And that's a real missed opportunity to not have your Gen Z cohort really really intrinsically involved in your transformation process because they, you know, they have the power to see things that we just cannot see. >> Yeah. And what would your advice be to Gen Z who are trying to get into this space? How can they leverage that advantage that they've got and how do they showcase it? I >> mean, I I think there's plenty of opportunity to do that. I mean I I often get well not often but sometimes get messages from you know from students who have looked at something that I'm doing and actually just offered a better way of doing it and it's and you know it's really really impressed me and you know I thought great actually you know what when I've got a job I I want to hire you because that's exactly what I want someone to do and I think you've got opportunities to do that within your application forms. You've also got opportunities just whenever you like to write to someone senior and say look you know I've seen what you're doing and actually I think this would be great and actually really make your voice known. I mean the possibilities are endless. You know this is it is a process driven process in terms of applying for jobs but there are endless ways to stand out in that process and actually really communicating your view. You can communicate them online. you can communicate them in messages. Actually, really if you do have that unique viewpoint and you do have that unique insight, you know, don't don't wait for an application form to to show that, you know, feel free to to show that any way that you want and don't necessarily, you know, if you've got a cover letter opportunity, you can put whatever you like in there and actually if you've got that skill, showcase it and actually if it lands in front of the right person, it will it will get noticed. And if it doesn't, then it's the wrong it's the wrong business for you. Keep trying. If if if that doesn't get noticed, then it's because you're not in the right environment to be noticed. And that that is really important as well because you need to be in the right firm. You can have all of the the right, you know, you can be the right package at the wrong door, frankly. And there's a lot of wrong doors in law at the moment if you are really creative like that. So, don't be put off by that. You know, just keep going until you find the firm that listens to you because you will be really, really valued in the right organization. >> And what about when they're in? How do they stand out when they're in an organization? What can they do to add value from the outset in a way that others maybe can't? >> Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of it is actually learning first of all being a bit of a sponge at the beginning and actually learning about the right way to go about it because there are different ways of going about things in in different firms. There are different ways to be heard and actually I mean I would always recommend speaking to as many people as you can, senior people, you know, even if it's not in your department. there's there's no reason why you can't arrange meetings with partners in a different department. You know, do your research around people in the firm who who you think share your views based on their profiles, based on their LinkedIn, based on their internet profiles and seek them out and speak to them. uh because that's that is eventually how I you know made my way at IM eventually found somebody who actually really aligned with my views who was senior but it took me about five years to do that um because I actually kind of was kind of looking kind of within the you know the departments that I was in and actually turned out it was the CTO you know somebody who I didn't even really think to contact um but yeah so I think really you know research research how the firm works research the people who you think you will be aligned with and regardless of how senior they are just just arrange a meeting, you know, they can only say no or it can only not go in your favor. You know that there's, you know, that's that's the worst case scenario. If you're doing a good job, it's not going to affect it's not going to affect your progression opportunity provided you go about it in the right way. So, you know, there is no harm in just reaching out to as many people and finding allies. Finding allies within the firm is is really really important. You won't always find them in your immediate team. So, I think really kind of making, you know, making the effort to get to know people in, you know, in your wider firm and finding those allies is is super important. >> Yeah. And I think that applies not just to to young to Jenz's going into uh new jobs. I think it applies to anybody that's going into a new role, how you would go about making your mark in a business. Um and and you've built a really impressive online brand and you've got a lot of people that kind of look up to you and listen to you and um how has that helped you in your career would you say? >> Massively. I mean I think having the having the the network and the brand has has been kind of instrumental to my career trajectory in a way that I never predicted. I started a YouTube channel back in 2017 and it it was nothing to do with my career. You know, I social media wasn't really back then. It wasn't really a tool that anyone recognized as a marketing tool or a tool to help you with your career. It was purely again a kind of a necessity a necessity start because I you know I had a really difficult time getting through the process and kind of an unusual background and as soon as I I did I really wanted to mentor other people and I got to a stage where I was mentoring like three or four people and I just felt that I want that I couldn't give any more because alongside working and I thought how am I going to do how can I mentor more people without giving up kind of more hours of my time and my friend was uh she was a YouTuber and she I mean she vlogged about Disney and beauty and all sorts of things but she had like 30,000 subscribers or something on YouTube and like she I was watching her do these videos and I thought maybe I could do this maybe I could actually like mentor online you know it's a completely free resource it's totally accessible to anybody you don't have to be able to afford it you know which was exactly the premise that I wanted I wanted it to be completely accessible I thought you know why don't I just try there was nothing like it online at all at that point so I just thought you know what's what's the harm if it helps you know a handful of people you know that's I'm already doing more than I am now and it's you know giving up a couple of hours a week to shoot video. So anyway, that that's how it started and then you know what followed obviously out of that was then you know awards and you know publications and and loads and loads of things and you know now I've got a following of kind of over 150,000 um which is which is wild and the doors that that opened for me later on which I had no idea of at the time you know what followed then you know was you know people offering me partnership when I was only like three or four years qualified and you know all of this stuff and it just insane at that point. And then when I later went on to launch my own business, it was, you know, the the the help that that network gave me was incredible. You know, people that I had helped in the past and referred work for, you know, they help me set up. I've got kind of like an unofficial board of directors, you know, whenever I need it because I've built that network of people that I've supported in the past. So, actually just having that network of people. I don't think I ever would have been able to start my own business without it because I've just got such, you know, I've got such a big group of people to to to call from and, you know, to get advice from and to support. And obviously then the following as well, you know, helps to generate leads. I mean, that's pretty much my my biggest source of lead genen is my my online profile. Word of mouth and online profile are my two biggest sources of of lead genen. So it's it's been instrumental in building the business as well and and actually being able to be independent from a firm because otherwise you know I I I much prefer being independent than as part of a firm but actually it's a very difficult thing to do to be able to generate enough of your own leads to to actually gain that independence and the online profile is is what helped me to do that. So it's been really really instrumental for me. >> How incredible. What? I love that story. Amazing. How far you've come and just taking a leap, trying something different, and trying to put stuff out there that's of value. I think that's really key. Trying to not just content for the sake of it, but content that adds value to people is uh something that you've done really well from the outset and I've always admired you for and uh yeah, can totally see how that's had a huge influence in how you've progressed now. >> Yeah, thank you. And yeah, I think you know in a in an arena where we are very precedent driven, I think you have to sometimes just take a leap of faith and say there isn't a precedent for this, but I see the value in it and if there's value then it should work even if there's no precedent for it. Uh which is very anti- lawyer to to say that. Um but actually, you know, it's something and I I think actually being a junior lawyer then helped me because I didn't have as many precedents. I wasn't kind of ingrained in well I must follow in someone else's footsteps. If no one else has done it, it must be too risky. I hadn't developed that yet. I think as I've got older, right, I potentially have developed it a little bit more, but then I just hadn't. I, you know, I just didn't, you know, I wasn't ingrained in those processes and that was a real a real value to me, I think. >> Yeah, definitely. I think you're you're more rebellious when you're younger. So, I think huge advantage for anyone who's younger and entering the profession because they shouldn't be afraid of that rebellious streak. They should embrace it and just just go with it. and and and it also helps you think totally differently to to your point uh to anyone else who has that precedent and that structure in their minds of what's acceptable and what's not. Yeah. Excellent. So, if you could if you could rewrite one part of the Gen Z career path for them, what would you what would you start with? >> Well, that's a great question. uh I I think it would be uh greater responsibility earlier because I think there's a tendency in the legal profession to say okay well juniors are at the bottom and seniors are at the top but actually that's in terms of experience in law is what we're talking about there but realistically Gen Z have far superior experience and knowledge in technology data processing marketing social media all of those things so they shouldn't be considered junior really overall in the business perhaps they're junior in terms their legal experience but they should be very senior actually in respect of those aspects of the business which are vital really in this period that we're going through now in terms of transformation. So I I think one part of the process I would be to to look at Gen Z as yes juniors as lawyers but seniors in terms of the other aspects that they can really add value in and to treat them appropriately both with bearing both of those things in mind. >> Yes, thank you. That's a that's a really good tip, I think. And it is hard because it's quite a hierarchical culture, isn't it, within law firms. So, it's going to be hard to make that change. Um, but I think it's going to start to happen. And I'm hearing I had a friend actually that messaged me recently. He is in a very old industry and he's trying to influence them and get them to adopt AI and understand the benefits of it. And he he does contract work. He's not a lawyer, but he does contract work. And um even though he's kind of mid-level in his career, the influence he's now having in these really senior circles because he's bringing input, you know, he's he's providing input from a realm that they're not that familiar with and that they may be a little bit worried about or scared of. And I think that's really it. I think to make your mark, you need to you need to bring something that's fresh and different and to not be afraid of it. And then of course, if you've got a leadership team that supports that and you're mindful of what type of organization you're going into and you're seeing those signs early on, then it just gives you such a good footing for the rest of your career. Um, yeah, Chrissy, it's been an absolute pleasure to speak to you today. Thank you so much for joining us. And, uh, for anyone who listened in today, please stay tuned. There's more to come. And, uh, thank you once again, Chrissy. >> Thank you. Nice to speak to you. And you take care. [Music]