Cults vs Cultures

Key Takeaways

A company should have beliefs, customs, that make it what it is. [music] If you go to work for a company and they're like, "But we're fanatical about customers and we'll do anything for our customers." And somebody who like hates being like that might say, "Gosh, these people are like a cult." [music] If you mean they are really, really into treating customers well, and they're kind of fanatical [music] about it, it might feel that way to somebody that doesn't like that culture, but that doesn't make it a cult. And that's the thing that's so dangerous is the people will immediately call something in a negative term just because they have a strong culture. And by the way, the definition of a company with a strong culture will repel people who don't fit that culture. Welcome to At the Table, the podcast that lives at the intersection between culture, leadership, teamwork, and organizational health. I'm Pat Lencioni, your host, joined by Cody Thompson, my co-host. What are we talking about today, Cody? Cult versus culture. That's right. Cult versus culture. I don't know how this hit my radar screen, but I remember years and years ago Jim Collins in his book Built to Last, him and Jerry Porras wrote about great companies have strong cultures. And they referred to them as cult-like. And I think they did that to really get people's attention. And then I've over the years I've learned about cults. There's all kinds of documentaries, and you've probably seen them all, Cody, because you love documentaries. And I realized that it's really important to understand the difference between having a strong culture and a culture being a cult. And what's interesting about that is I was going to call this podcast, Is Your Company a Cult? Just to get people's attention for clickbait. The the the answer is almost certainly no. There's very few companies that actually act like a cult because a cult has a very specific definition. We're going to talk about that. But it's really worth understanding this. Frankly, most companies don't have a strong culture at all. And uh we just kind of want to differentiate between what a cult and a culture is. We thought this was some interesting brain candy, and it's something we can apply in our organizations. Does that make sense, Cody? Yeah, I love that you said, you know, the answer's probably not because no one's going to wake up tomorrow and feel like, "Oh, no, was I was I at a company that was a cult this whole time?" Because that's not how it works, right? [laughter] You It takes a ton of intentionality to build a culture, and very few companies are sort of anemic in culture. They're not over indexing on culture. And so, that maybe that's sort of a a nuance we can explore. Yeah, and I think people use that word cult, and there's other words in society that people use carelessly. Like, if your manager does something, if he if he makes a decision or she makes a decision that's kind of selfish, people will go, "She's a narcissist." And it's like, well, there's actually a definition of what that is, and it's a very serious thing to be narcissistic. And to throw that around, and sometimes a a culture in a company will be very strong, and somebody won't won't like it, and they'll go, "This place is a cult." And and that's like throwing a blanket on something because you really just don't like what it is. So, we want to understand that. And then sometimes we as companies and as people, we do things that actually are not healthy, and maybe we can go, "Oh, yeah, that's something that cults do. We don't ever want to do something like that." Because if though we're laughing about this, there are cults in the world, and they are dangerous. Yeah. And a cult is not a good thing. It's very damaging, and people have been hurt by them and continue to get hurt by them. So, so that's what we want to talk about today is the is the difference. Yeah, and I'm curious that you said you're not exactly sure how this came out on your radar for us to have a topic about it, but I'd love for you to just kind of like explore that difference. Like, I mean, you've spent decades and decades helping companies create culture. How do we behave? Who are the type of people that belong here? I think even some of you know, a lot of the six critical questions play into this, how do you build a culture? Because even the why we exist is part of a culture. It's not just the behavioral values, right? Like, sort of this uh ascribing to a purpose. Where is the demarcation line? I'm going to repeat something we just said before cuz you and I talked about this before we started. The majority of companies have a very mild if any culture. Mhm. Most companies we go to do generic things. And so, to be a culture, to have a company with a strong culture is very clear like what it's like. And people who don't fit tend to leave. But but but it's not like a cult. We're going to talk about what that is. But I was thinking about even countries in the world. And I'm not going to say any of them. I wouldn't want to offend anyone. But there are certain countries in the world that have very mild cultures if almost any, you know? It's like, what makes that country unique or interesting? And there are others that have very clear cultures, whether it's food or behavior or the way they live their lives. It's interesting. Some some companies, many companies are kind of generic and cultureless. And you can go to work there and you're not going to get easily offended by anything but other than mediocrity probably. Yeah. Um which is not a core value. >> And by definition, it can't be all things to all people because it has to coalesce around a certain set of like values, affinity for things. I I actually as you were as you were talking about that, I was thinking like my father-in-law is part of a classic car club, you know? Now, and this is how they've made friends in different locations that they've moved. And and there's a certain like level of affinity. Yeah, there's but I'm sort of interested because like there's there is the affinity for classic cars. And maybe there's some behavioral things around that which are like oh, like we like restoration. We're putting in the hard work. We're like restoring things to the old way. So, there's there's some sort of value-based proposition in there that Yeah, we have affinity for the past and nostalgia. But it's not just we all like classic cars, you know? Cuz cuz you go to a a car meet up and there are cars that are from the 1950s and there are brand new cars that have like supercharged engines in them, and those are two very distinct different cultures. Yes, exactly. Exactly. Okay, let's go back then. I went to the dictionary, you remember one of those, but I did it online, so I don't think we have paper ones anymore. And so, let's look at the definition, okay, of these different things. So, the definition of a culture, it's the beliefs, customs, arts, etc. of a particular social group, place, or time. We talk about popular culture. And and so, a company should have beliefs, customs, artifacts that make it what it is. Okay, a cult is a group with tenets and practices that are regarded as coercive, insular, or dangerous. Mhm. And I think that's really important. Now, the the it's not a fine line, but the line between the two sometimes depends on the person that you are. Like, if you go to work for a company and they're like, "But we're fanatical about customers, and we'll do anything for our customers, and we could admit when we're wrong, and we give a" And somebody who like hates being like that might say, "Gosh, these people are like a cult." It's like, if you mean they are really, really into treating customers well, and they're kind of fanatical about it, yeah, that might be your definition, but is it coercive? Is it dangerous? Is it insular? It might feel that way to somebody that doesn't like that culture, but that doesn't make it a cult. And that's the thing that's so dangerous is that people will will immediately call something in a negative term just because they have a strong culture. And by the way, the definition of a company with a strong culture is it it will repel people who don't fit that culture. Mhm. But it doesn't exclude them and demean them and and forbid people from being friends with them. Yeah. It just says, "If you want to work here, this is how we're going to act." Like, I remember years ago when we first started hiring at The Table Group. I remember this woman, we met her and she was wonderful. We thought she was fantastic. But she didn't fit our culture and we all knew it. There was a certain and we helped her get a job at Clorox, I think, which was a very like old school corporation with a dress code and they were very formal and they they were really good at branding and it was the old school of of company culture and she was a great fit for that culture and not for ours, but we really liked her and we kept in touch with her. It wasn't like we said, "Oh, we don't want to have anything to do with this person." We just said, "She's not going to like it here and it won't be that fun for her." Yeah. And so that's very different, rejecting a person for who they are versus saying, "I don't think this is the right place for you." I love that definition. To go back to that word like the coercion part, you know, the difference between company culture and a cult. Because I I think that um when we talk about even when we're teaching leaders about how do you build a culture within your company, a lot of times we'll talk about what what you celebrate gets repeated, right? Like if you find ways to catch people behaving in the context of your core values and celebrate that over and over again and people will be you know, will opt into that behavior. I think that might be a little bit of that line and that nuance is if it's punitive and coercive, that's when it gets to the cult-like behavior. If it's celebrated and rewarded and saying like, "Hey, you can opt into this." And I even going back to the interview process, "Hey, if you are like this, you know, you're talking about this woman. If you if you love, you know, sort of an informal messy culture, you're going to love it here." And so you're kind of up front with it and you're saying, "Hey, this is exactly who we are. We're going to be authentic about that." But if it's coercive and punitive, that's where it maybe crosses the line. Yeah, exactly. Gosh, and I'm thinking about like you could even look at nations when I talked about this before. I like to I I to take things to kind of a edgy point, and say there are countries in the world where I would not want to live. Not because they're not wonderful people, or that their culture is not valid, it just doesn't fit my personality. Mhm. You know, I mean like here's one, Japan is not a culture it's a it's a very um the rules are very very clear, and it has a very strong culture about what it means to be culturally Japanese, and how to fit in, and and the the kind of food they eat and everything else. I'm not against that, I love Japanese people that I meet them, and it's very fun, but to I to live there would not be a pleasant experience for me, because I'm kind of more creative and crazy, and don't follow the rules, and there they would think I was kind of nuts. That doesn't mean they're cult-like, it just means they have a culture, and when you when you see a country or a company with a culture that you don't fit, it doesn't mean you criticize them, you just mean it's that's not perfect for me. Mhm. But I think we've gotten into a situation maybe in society where we think everybody has to fit in every culture, which means we we kind of winnow it down to the lowest common denominator, or no common denominator. And now we don't have a culture at all, and and nobody particularly likes being there. Does that make sense? Yeah, and I think that it goes both ways. Like you probably wouldn't feel that comfortable in that culture, and they probably would feel like you're super disruptive in that culture. You know, like that you would be maybe an outlier, which is fine, but it's good to know that. I I think even as it relates to companies, you know, we we your books have been translated into dozens and dozens of languages, like somewhere in the 40s or something like that. I can't I don't have the And often people will say like, "Well, does this work everywhere?" And like the answer is sometimes. You know, like teamwork, the values of teamwork, and trust, and vulnerability, and all that stuff might work, but in the Japanese context it would be very different than it would be in an American context. And I always say, you have to adjust the principles to how it will work in your culture. Mhm. Teamwork in Japan, I do think the five dysfunctions of a team apply, but they don't apply in the same way. And when you talk about like we have to have good healthy conflict, well, that's going to look very different in Japan than it is in Italy. Yeah. You know, and as a cultural Italian, that's one of the things. It's like, oh yeah, I get that. That doesn't mean it's bad in Japan and it's good in Italy or vice versa. It just means it's different. And so I guess what I would say is this when we talk about cults versus cultures, I would say companies need to be more daring, more bold in creating cultures that that the people who aren't really suited for it feel the need to go, I don't think this is for me. And when we bend over backward to accommodate people to fit into a culture, what we end up doing is usually creating a culture of genericism and mediocrity, and then nobody feels like they want to be there. And and I think that's the biggest problem in in in company culture and for organizational health is companies that have generic values. And Cody, how many times, you know, we go into a company and they say what their values are and they pick like five words that are the same. I mean, imagine you were starting a country and you said, what is our culture going to be? Well, we're going to eat food, we're going to sleep, we're going to live in shelter, and yeah, we're going to be breathing. It's like that doesn't tell you anything about that. But sometimes it feels like very generic companies deviate toward that. It's like everybody fits here. I love what you're teasing out there, and I think there's an important nuance too that we should tease out, which is while we're talking very clearly about coalescing around a certain set of values that's required for a company, it doesn't actually mean a homogeneous way of thinking. In fact, it's that people ascribe to these values, cuz I think when people hear this path, they're going to be like, "Oh, hey, well, if all you do is get people that think like you in the same room, isn't that pretty dangerous, especially in business?" And the truth is is they don't have it we're not saying at all that people need to think the same way or that they need to have the same background or come from the same place. But they should ascribe to a certain set of values that is what the organization holds up and says, "Here's what it means to work here, right?" Now, in the midst of that, we should have as varied a group of thinkers and way people approach problems as we can, not violating the core behaviors. Well, yeah, and this gets back to our our our definition of what a what core values are. I like to and I I I've said this for years because I want to be provocative. Good companies are brutally intolerant of violations of their core values, which is why they have to have two or three of them. In other words, it's like we love all people to work here, unless of course you don't like customers or you're not willing to work well with this these people over here or you don't really enjoy something a little kooky. That doesn't mean we hate people that don't enjoy that, we just don't think they should work here because they're not going to have a good time. And so, I think the point is yes, there should be certain things that we should say, "If you don't have this in common with us around these one, two, or three things, then you're not a fit here." But if you have 12 things, now you're creating a bunch of robots who actually have to think and act alike because you can't really have diversity if you don't have some limits to that diversity. It's like a nation that says, "If you want to live in the United States, you should value freedom, you should value hard work, and you should value, you know, a you know, helping others or whatever else." Beyond that, you can be almost anything. Mhm. But if you have no core values, then you have nothing to coalesce around, and that's not diversity. That's actually just random scatteredness. And that's one of the things we see in so many companies. People that go to work, they wondered, what exactly do I have in common with everyone else here? See, you should have one or two things in common with everyone else you work with. Yeah. And a company can either define that or not define it and then let it become something accidental or become nothing at all. So, I actually think that so it's interesting. A cult would be way on one extreme, which is dangerous, coercive, rejecting people, and and cutting people off. You know, when you leave a cult, people aren't allowed to talk to you anymore. That's crazy. But on the other end would be this kind of dystopian society where people just walk around and believe nothing and ascribe to nothing. And they're both they're they're both terrible. I want to ask you one other question cuz you've used this word sort of this like generic the the word generic as it applies to company core values. You know, like so so I actually this has always been helpful for me when we're in the room with clients and they choose a value like integrity. Talk a little bit about the differentiation between like an actual core value that is unique about that group or one that should maybe be considered like a permission to play like, "Hey, we don't even Yeah, if you're not honest, you can't work here." You know, that's that's that's a low bar. Yeah. I remember once working with a company that said integrity. We argued with them for over multiple meetings about cuz we're helping them with their core values. So, integrity. And we're like, "The only way you can have that as a core value is if you believe that you have demonstrably more integrity than every other company in your industry and in the market." I mean, you have to be like, "Are you willing to do crazy things to prove that you will do integrity even when you're punished for it?" And and they weren't and they but they would go, "We still want to have it." And then at one point somebody said, "Hey, we should go through our competitors' garbage and see what who their clients are and maybe we could that's how we can know who to go after." And I was like, "Did you hear yourself right now?" >> [laughter] >> They go, "Well, it's not illegal." And I'm like, "Yeah, but" and then they were like, "Okay, we're not going to be integrity." Because it has to be something that's so markedly different that it differentiates you. And the fact that most people use that word, we we almost pretty much said nobody can use that because everybody uses it so generically. So, the other thing we do, Cody, is if somebody says, "But we like that concept." We say, "Pick a word that makes it really clear what it means to you." So, in instead of saying that we have that we're honest, say we are brutally frank and will never compromise our integrity. Mhm. Are you really willing to say that? And if they say yes, we go, "Okay, you may have earned the right to put it on there. Let's let's let that bake for a while." So, people, what they need to do is actually ask themselves, and I love this, Collins came up with this, "How much are you willing to suffer for that value? How much business would you lose? Would you be willing to give away to avoid compromising that value?" And that is really important. That's not a cult. Right. Right. Now, I can imagine a salesperson who wants to compromise their values to make their number, and they go to their boss and say, "I have this deal and and here's how I made the deal and I think we can shove it down the client's throat to make our revenue." And I've worked at companies that did that. And if the company says, "No, we're not going to do that." They would go like, "Man, this place is like a cult." Well, if you mean that we're really serious about integrity and honoring our clients even at the expense of our bottom line, if that makes us a cult, then so be it. But but it doesn't. >> Yeah. So, I think you have to avoid having no values. And then the next thing to avoid is having really genericized permission to play values and get yourself to a place where we can say, "Hey, here are the two or three or four things that we really care about, that we're going to be really serious about. And if you are a person that likes these, you're going to love it here. And if not, you're not you're going to hate it." >> You know something, Cody? I just thought of something. You know what I think would be a great exercise for companies? Is to actually say, "Let's describe our values in a way that a person who doesn't share them would find it uncomfortable." Let's go to the extreme of making them sound negative to somebody who doesn't like them. Mhm. Because one man's trash is another man's treasure. It's like, "We totally value this thing." If a person didn't Let's describe it in a way that would annoy them. Yeah. Like let's exaggerate the opposite of it or exaggerate it in a way that some people would probably run for the hills rather than want to work there. I remember being in a in a room, Pat, with an executive team and they asked me a question, "W- What do you think of our values? Like did you look at our values on the website?" And I was like, "Yeah, I I saw them." And they're like, "What do you think?" And I was like, "Well, I don't It doesn't matter what I think. Are they real?" Exactly. Like what questions are you asking in an interview that are getting at those things? What are you searching for? Tell me a story of a person that like went to the extreme, like you said, to embrace one of those values, you know? Cuz there there's no like religion in the the cultural values of it. There's no like Like you you should pick ones you're serious about. And certainly there are some that are more moral than others, you know? Like if you're going to pick integrity and then go through your your the trash of your competitor, that's not great. You probably shouldn't pick we have nefarious intent as your value, you know? That would be not great. How serious are you about it? And And it's not like we go in and say, "Hey, here are the good values and here are the bad ones." We're saying like, "What is true?" And what can you actually live out? >> realized, by the way, Cody, why we I came up with this topic. I'd forgotten about this. You'll know what I mean when I describe it, but we had an employee here at The Table Group. One of our values is humble and and vulnerability is all part of that. Mhm. And he was struggling with that. And And we were calling him on it, but in a in a good way. And he was like do I have to actually do this? Are you saying I really have to admit this and acknowledge this and be vulnerable? And and in his like grasping like do do I want to work here or do I not want to work here? People came around him and said you're going to love it. It's just this is how we act. But and it's you're going to like it. It's actually good for you. And he said is that like a cult-like thing? And we're like no no no because if you don't want to work here that's okay. We'll still love you but we actually believe that humility and vulnerability is something that everybody in their life will be able to love you and enjoy you more and you'll become better and they they said I'm going to do it. The people in their life said you like these people trust them and they broke through and they they became more vulnerable and they're like oh I'm so glad I'm here. But it wasn't because we coerced them is we just said we believe this and we think it's really good for you. Mhm. And and what they found on the other end of that and this might be the >> difference between a cult and a culture. When you embrace that and you work through it you feel loved and accepted for who you are not loved and accepted because you compromise who you are. Right. Right. >> Cuz we said to this guy we want all of you and in order to love all of you we need you to be vulnerable and let us know what who you are when you make a mistake when you're hurting when and um and I remember that's when I thought oh and I went and looked it up. I said what is a cult? And I said okay we're not doing anything cult-like cuz he used that word and now he's like no this is not a cult at all. This just means you guys care about me. But that's the crazy thing. If you're not used to working at an in an organization that has strong values any values might might bring up that idea of cult. Cody I worked at a company years ago and I did not like it. I worked there for two and a half years and I learned a ton and thank God for it because it's it's made its way into my books and and and my theories and I've learned a lot. But it was a company that had a culture. I won't say it out loud. It's a a company people know. But it's a company that had a culture for being really competitive. Internally, externally. And they rewarded people that were really competitive and that were pretty edgy when it came to making their goals. Okay? And and I remember cuz I I like the idea of that I opted out because it just wasn't right for me. And and that's good. I just wasn't going to stay there for any longer than that. But when I look at it, I can say simultaneously in one way I can admire the fact that they knew who they were and they were pretty up-front about that. Yeah. And on the other hand, I could I could also say I don't want to work there cuz I don't enjoy that culture. Or even kind of I I would say I had a hard time respecting their values cuz it was a little bit brutal. But they were kind of like, "Hey, here's the thing. You're going to do really well here if you if you work your tail off and if you out-compete your your team members." And they were pretty up-front about that. Which allowed me to say that's not for me. See, there's almost a a grace in people admitting If they should have just said, "Hey, we're kind of mean. We're not very friendly and we we like people that are super ambitious even at the expense of their colleagues." So if you're okay with that >> [laughter] >> they could have been a little bit more up-front about it, but it became apparent and it allowed me to opt out. Now, 2 and 1/2 years was a little longer than I needed, but uh nonetheless, at least we figured it out. >> I like that you're sort of painting a picture where it's not always like integrity versus lack of integrity. Sometimes like competition can be really positive thing and they're very clear about it. I I worked at a company Pat where I wish they had said, "Hey, we're we don't really rely on intuition and discernment as much as we do data." That would have been so helpful to me because I It was founded by two data scientist guys and I was there and I suggested a new product and they were like, "Well, what where's the data?" And I was like, we don't have any data around this new product. Two years later, we launched new product, it's super successful, but I felt like a crazy person in that context because I I I'm not a data scientist, you know. So, I think it's it's important to note that it's not like, you know, there are there are things like competition or even there's plenty of companies out there that want to run it more like a data decision-making, you know, operation and that doesn't fit everybody. Right. That doesn't make it a cult, it just means that's where the culture's at. You know, I thought about that company I worked at for 2 and 1/2 years. They probably could have said right up front, "Hey, if you're kind of a sensitive person, like you have kind of high sensitivity to others' needs, and you really want to work in a super supportive, supporting environment, this might not be fun for you." >> Yeah. And I would have probably gone It would have been good for them and for me. Totally. And I said, "Yeah, I I think I am kind of sensitive and I really do want to know that I'm supposed to support other people and they're supposed to support me and it's if we make our collective number that's better than our individual ones." And And they would have been like, "Yeah, this is We're not set up that way." And that would have been helpful. So, um that's what's so interesting. So, when people accuse an organization of being a cult, what they're often doing is is discouraging them from having a culture. If somebody who doesn't like your values criticizes you for being a cult, just go back to that definition and say, "Are we being coercive? Are we being dangerous? Are we being Are we Are we ridiculing people like that?" No. Say, "Okay, so they just don't fit and that's okay. And let's love them and let's even love them after they leave and stay in touch with them just to show them that we don't think less of them for not fitting our culture. Maybe that's a that's a good thing people can do, too. Mhm. Love it. All right. Have a strong culture, not a cult. [snorts] You're probably not in in danger of that, but it's a good thing to check on it every once in a while. All right, Cody, thanks a lot, man. We'll talk to you to everybody next time on at the table. God bless you all.