ADHD: Adapting and thriving

Key Takeaways

And when I'm on stage, that the nervousness is part of my brain kind of coming into focus on the thing that's about to happen and then being sharp and unfiltered right at the right at the moment where >> where the thing starts. >> I like that phrasing. [Music] >> There's there's really a thing I want to always ask you. Okay. I'm not really sure. I mean, we had so many one-on- ones and I never really asked you. So, so they're like this big conferences, right? >> Yeah. >> Like built and um I don't really know. So, what do you think how many people, you know, if you have, you know, like the the rockstar talk with Dustin, it is the talk, right? It's the what's new in C#. How many people are in that in that room? >> Um, hundreds. >> Definitely hundreds. That's sometimes a thousand. Um, I think we had 2,000 ones, but it's rare that we have a room that's big enough for that. >> And you're both nervous, I get when you're before you go on stage. >> I can only speak for myself. Yes, absolutely. >> Absolutely. I'm nervous. What I what I'm so curious about is is actually so like I mean I pretty much saw every every one of them. >> Mhm. >> I think already because I need to learn at one point what's new in C#. Um but then like one two or 3 minutes into the talk do things change in terms of nervousness or excitement or they change about 2 seconds into the talk for me I am I am nervous until I step on stage and I think when I say nervous I think what I'm really saying is I'm I'm building up this rush of adrenaline And then once I get on stage, I feel energized and comfortable. >> And in like the majority of cases, I've definitely had things not go so well, but um the nervousness is before and when I'm on stage, that the nervousness is part of my brain kind of coming into focus on the thing that's about to happen and then being sharp and unfiltered right at the right at the moment where where the thing starts. >> I like that phrasing. So it's my body getting ready. >> So I mean we in the last episode we we briefly talked about the like the biochemist setup in the >> what was it frontal cortex? >> Yeah. Um we talked about dopamine. Do you think that that is like the kind of medication that the self- medication that you're actually like more or less inducing with that in >> you know in a way I think that everybody who goes on stage ADHD or not you know they probably have a similar or whenever you're like you're embarking on something important >> um your body has this whole system for like making sure you're up to it. It has these extra energy reserves and focus chemicals and whatever that it's throwing at you for that. Um, so I think that's that in and of itself is not an ADHD thing, >> but it does mean that I am also naturally medicated when I'm on stage. So, it also helps with the things that might >> where ADHD would normally like trip me up or whatever. That tends not to happen on stage because I am on I'm running on adrenaline. >> So I'm wondering in a way both of us had the like the ADHD diagnosis pretty pretty late in in the game. >> Yes. And um did did your assessment of when you you know I mean you're doing the what to to stay with that example you're doing the C# talks for example for I don't know pretty much since C# 2 right so that means for >> 20 years >> 20 years how you assess your reactions or your self-critic after like a talk is over. I mean I I would I would say it's like you know you're going up in excitement level and then in retrospect then you you you're getting this in this calm state when you're like off stage you're talking to the people and maybe there's something like a like a self-reflection of what just happened. Um was it a good talk? uh what were the reactions and so once you got your diagnosis did your self assessment for such situations change in any way um I don't know I think I think generally I felt pretty good after I felt pretty good Um, even before I I knew it had I had anything ADHD related. I think I I don't know. Usually I keep doing these talks because usually they're a good experience for me. Um, and might even have an overinflated sense of how well it went because I had a good experience doing it. >> Mhm. >> So um, that hasn't actually changed all that much. Are there other areas where I would say you you're more appreciative of of the things you can do or you're like when becoming more conscious that the reason that you can do them so well are now um I mean they obviously were always like that because you didn't change the only thing that changed was that at one point you got a diagnosis. Did your like appreciation for certain things that you can that you can do very well? Um did it become more conscious or >> Yeah, I think I'm I'm much more aware >> Mhm. >> of where my strengths and weaknesses are. Um so yeah, I do instead of saying that went well, I can sort of like connect it to what what it is that made it go well or not so well in a in a different way. I think in that sense. Yeah. So that means that that also at the same time then knowing about the diagnosis is is then also more of the chance to more actively improve what you can do well. Absolutely. And that's actually where I was. >> That is where you're going. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I think Yeah. >> Yeah. I mean in a sense like talking about the good things. >> Yeah. Um, I think in in many so in many ways ADHD in and of itself has been a good thing for me without me ever knowing. >> Yeah. >> In in the kind of and we can make maybe we'll talk more about that the kind of >> positive skills the superpowers or whatever that it it it >> the the brain differences um kind of acrewue. But I think also the the discovery itself for me has been quite a gift even as just like a a a chance like I'm in my 50s. I was in my 50s when I got diagnosed at this chance to kind of get a fresh look at myself to kind of um have a new have a shot at growing as a person and growing in my relationships. um g getting to a a place of more authenticity and more agency and it it's kind of I realize I'm now thinking about life much more in the terms of a journey. I think we use the word journey a lot in this in these episodes like life is a journey. there's constant like opportunities for growth and experience and I'm and curiosity and and I don't think I thought of things like that before as much. Um, >> but was curiosity always one of the major drivers for you? >> I've always been a curious person. >> Yeah. But I think the this idea that I could myself I could change and grow so much and that I could that my life and how I connect with it the people in my life and so on that there was so much evolution available to me as someone who's like at a steady place in life you know set have a job have a you know family all And it that was an unexpected gift to me. And I I really I really felt like it was a project of the best kind, you know, a labor of love and is to kind of just engage with that, to enjoy it, to be curious about it, to dig my teeth into it. And that's that's an that in of itself is an unexpected gift which part of it is just this discovery happened at this point in time. But also the maybe the the increase in like building the skills and the toolbox to deal with the negative things that might have gotten in the way of that experience. Yeah. >> So, it's sort of like both getting better at handling the ADHD at the same time as I'm enjoying the journey that it's >> make sense. Yeah. >> Yeah, that makes absolute sense. So would you say then that I mean I think it's a natural habit that we you know if we're doing a job that we really like and that I I I love it >> that that's what I have to put out and >> I was always extremely grateful that actually I mean I don't know if that is politically wise to say it like openly, but um I'm getting paid for my hobby. I mean, that's extremely satisfying and a great great luck that you have fortune. Um, but the awareness of that and your journey with ADHD and like the realization, did it kind of accelerate um the more active working on the positives and overcome the negatives? I think so. Yeah, I think so. Um, I think it essentially it's a discovery that led to a whole lot of feeling of agency. I have agency in my life like I never had before. I'm much less a victim of circumstances and much more, you know, control. I have have much more control or impact on what my life is and what it feels like. Um, and I probably always had, but it's just it's it's as much as an a change of perspective as it is a change of reality, maybe. Um, I don't know. How about you? >> I think yeah, I can pretty much relate to that. And up to the point where I mean, you mentioned last time, I don't know if you mentioned it in the episode or when we talked um when we talked offline about that that If you want to, you know, get into that creative flow and hyperfocus, then we reached and I say we we reached that at one point, but it was not really controllable. >> Mhm. And and this is what actually was for me before the whole journey started always something of a where I had mixed emotions about, right? I was really thankful that I could hyperfocus, but I didn't really have the the mechanisms to, you know, switch it on when I really needed it. Um, sometimes I couldn't even switch it on completely. And oh, well, only if I, you know, learned more about it. That was the that was the point where I could start way more, you know, have the influence about it and then utilize the superpowers the or >> the superpower aspect of ADHD if you will. >> Yeah. >> If that makes sense. M but then also I think then very lately um something happened which which was for me um a thing which which in the moment you could always say uh you could almost say democratized away all the shortcomings that probably I have and still so I had and still have because of ADHD. So for example, I was always really almost envying the people that that were able to, you know, write bug-free or error-free code in an enormous amount. um and then at a very short time and I can also write that code but because of the distractions that I had since the writing of the code is not part of the exciting thing that actually you know is that what what I would describe as my superpower. you know be uh be innovative and and stuff like that >> kind of fuels the focus and the creativity. >> Exactly. So >> I I I almost had you know a lot of trouble in you know staying then on that and then those innovations were almost you know going away but then along came AI. >> Mhm. So, and I remember when I when I first saw um an episode about a very early demonstration of um of Chad GPT. I don't know what version that was. It was like really early. Um I was thinking, "Oh my god, that's something scary." But that lasted only for I would say like a couple of minutes because in that episode they they also showed hey and by the way you can already try this out. >> Mhm. >> And so I tried that out and then the results at the beginning were like well had a lot of room for improvement. Yeah. But the really cool thing that I noticed already is that the the time from an exciting thing to the next exciting fueling thing to the next exciting fueling thing was reduced more and more. >> So fast forward I don't know two years there was really this journey of observing very closely what can those things do and what can't they do and I'm still not I would say someone who says oh AI will you know like replace us all >> um and and and take over the jobs and and so on I don't really think and and the reason I I don't think that is that um there's an there there's from my perspective and as I learned how to utilize um AI especially with regards to my shortcomings through ADHD is >> that at least for the moment there's a big difference between knowing and understanding. I the AIS knows a lot or know a lot but the weird box that you're getting back is the understanding or is related to the understanding and as long as that happens um I'm happy that I have like intellisense and even more I mean credit to the AIS >> but the gaps that that I had before in terms of I'm losing concentration because the code writing is really boring. I can concentrate now on on those things that that keep my attention level at a point. But I think at the same time while this is like, you know, really getting up my personal alley, I I am I'm like my brain is is set up in a way where I can ideally and and I'm I'm lucky to have that. um utilizing it in a way that that that that it's keeping my attention that way and that I can be very productive and it's democratizing away all those things. >> I need to be very mindful that brains are working differently. So this is definitely not not true for everybody and this is also something that I think um like right now we need to be very mindful that that that those things which which can be fuel for you know like certain types of ADHD can at the same time also um scaring people off and do the exact opposite. Um, yeah, knowing the same thing. >> Yeah. And I think it I think we're all still learning how how AI works with different >> Yeah. >> people and styles and so on. But I think it's very interesting what you say that it's sort of like because one thing I can definitely empathize with is that um the ADHD brain abhores drudgery. Yeah. Sense. And um especially when you're in that precious flow state or trying to be they're trying to be creative, trying to you you the idea is forming in your mind and then when the world around you can't keep up and often in for us the world around us is the development environment or whatever. keep up and you have all this drudgery that you need to do and now you need to make get it to compile and you need to you know write the boiler plate 90 more times and whatever >> and the and what what AI can do things like copilot or whatever it can do when it works well is that it can it it is very good at picking up the drudgery um and so that in that sense you can stay on you can stay on that line of abstract creative thinking >> and not get pulled in too much into the things that knock you out of your focused space. Is that is that a fair >> I would say. Yeah. Yeah. Pretty much. >> Yeah. >> And I think that um that is >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I would definitely agree to that. But I think it's also super important to mention that that there there are a lot of experiments that that Fox should do uh maybe connected to the or well not maybe but definitely um when they are on that ADHD journey how how AI mean and I don't mean that necessarily in codew writing like um But maybe also in creative to-do lists. >> Yeah. >> Um in, you know, like decluttering information because that's certainly something that people with ADHD might have um problems with. So I don't know how many times um when I'm, you know, like researching bugs, investigating bugs, then there's a comment there. Then the next day I was on a different machine and then I have something there. And but I mean over the time I try to utilize one drive to to keep everything at least not cluttered in 10 different machines. Um yay to me. uh but still then there are those files and those files and those nodes and so on and I can just you know you know give it all to co-pilot and say do me a favor order that and then >> this is something where I can very actively you know like >> yeah I find >> use it use those things for my my personal >> yeah that yeah I I I resonate with that as well I think I often find I've found like before the AI days I found that a lot of times I need some kind of sparring, some kind of interaction in order for things to ideas that are bubbling in my head to get them structured and get and and I find myself increasingly, you know, prompts like help me help me plan, help me organize, help me structure of that sort of nature are often what I will use AI for. Um kind of make up for my disorganized mind in a way. Yeah. >> Um, and yeah, compensate for the the places where I fall off the cliff. >> Do you know the term rubber ducking? >> Yes. But maybe not everyone does. >> Yeah. But I mean, there's even a Wikipedia um entry that >> explains that. So, but I think every developer knows and at some point did it without really knowing it. So that I'm, you know, thinking about a problem and I cannot solve it. So I'm standing up and I'm going into your office and then I ask, "So Matt, do you have 5 minutes?" And you say, "Yeah." And then I'm starting to telling you about my problem and you you don't say anything and you never do. And then after five minutes I >> That's exactly it. Yep. >> And you go like well didn't do anything and then I went back and the problem is solved and I think that is something that um it's another application for AI. I mean >> I agree. >> Yeah. So so in that regard yeah those are the things that that that absolutely >> that's a really good point. >> Yeah. So what do you think? What do you think people can actively you know like more structural try to do to find out what tools for themselves work are there um or you hope to improve once they realize there's something that they can improve. What do you think is a good approach to um to tackle the the whole thing >> to well because it's so personal right I mean >> yeah you I mean you got to it it is very personal is very different your situation is different your if you have it your presentation is different the things you're struggling with are different I think there are I mean get curious get curious and accept that what people say this will definitely work for you because it worked for me it might not work for you Um for me there's a lot of trial and error involved. Um so staying curious and and reading and listening and viewing various things. Um I had a period where I had um some very useful coaching as well and a lot of things to coach like this this is a great tool I would come back next time and say didn't work for me. My brain and my brain didn't agree with it. and being open to the trial and error of it. And also one thing I noticed and also talked to others with ADHD about is because of the there's this kind of craving novelty. There's a way when something becomes drudgery, you stop doing it. Yes. And so you can build the build or put together the best system for being organized or for whatever it is you you need tools for >> and it works for three or four months and all of a sudden it's routine. >> All of a sudden it's routine and and you find yourself not doing it and the and the system is perfect except for the one thing which is you've been doing it for a while. >> Yes. and and you know just accept that as a good reason for finding a new system you know or finding a new tool or whatever you just >> your brain just does that. It's not that there's a perfect one that you will eventually find. It's probably it's also a journey. you're just making a journey and you know lo and behold um this this country that you're visiting was exotic for a while and now you've been here for 4 months and it's and it's and it's just you know every day normal natural and you and you got to go somewhere else to experience that again. >> Yes. Yeah. I I couldn't agree more. Hm. So, yeah, that that would be one that surprised me. I was like, once I, you know, just get got to get my toolbox together and then I'm all and I'm set for life. And it's just so very very clearly not the case. >> I think it's also then to come to to realize that this is nothing again where you failed at. Yeah. So when you just you know used or started the the eight system for organizing yourself that didn't work. >> Yeah. >> That's the way it is. >> That's just how it is. >> And then you start the ninth. So >> yeah, >> in a way >> the process of finding new systems that work for you is part of the solution, right? >> Yeah. What is the solution actually >> in a way? Yeah. And it and honestly, you know, you can look at the positive side of that as well compared to not having that problem, which is every time >> you sort of forced or you let yourself stop and think, hey, what works for me now? So, you get these like points of introspection or reflection that are built in because your brain has to stop and think every so often when it gets bored and needs to get to the next place. So it's that's that's a gift of its own actually. Really? >> So I'm curious about one more thing. Do you think there are superpowers that >> you Well, we call them superpowers. It's like Yeah, it sounds a little pretentious, but it's a it is a it's a technical term in our in our community to to talk of the the positive uh aspects or symptoms, if you will, of ADHD. A and um so no matter how we call that >> did you do you think that or maybe you you even you know did the personal experience after your your discovery and the journey that you did so far? we're able to kind of find and then even um cultivate those things that you didn't think you had before. >> Um like new superpowers in a way. >> Yeah. >> Not that I know of. I I don't I'm not aware. I I'll give it a think. But but right here in real time, I can give you an example of that. Um, I think one thing that I one thing that I I think I realized is that some of my superpower skills, things that I'm really good at, some of them are like inherent things to the brain working differently like the pattern matching and those things and others I think are learned are things that are are learned the hard way. Like I've an example, I've always been overly concerned about what other people think and I've always been a a people pleaser and I always been like conflict averse and those things are, you know, those things are pretty direct ADHD things that a lot of people have. >> Yes. >> Uh not everyone but many do. >> And a different type of anxiety again, right? >> Yes. Yes. Very connected to anxiety that we talked about in earlier episodes. But it also but it means that I've built an enormous skill for consensus seeking and that I've kind of honed my leaned into my empathy and so on in order to overcome those things. It's be those skills have been important for me maybe for the wrong reasons but now they're al they're sort of secondary superpowers in a sense that they are now in my toolbox. um even though I don't have to be driven to them by anxiety anymore, they're still there and they're still like things I am happy to have. >> Does that make sense? >> It makes absolute sense. Um but to relate, I would even say that I have I've had like a similar experience. Um, I mean the culture that we're living now is is like a big shift, you know, like triggered by AI and different people have different speeds of how they can approach and and pivot and you know like yeah >> adapt to that. And I would I would say that not that I really discovered something as a new superpower, but it became clear to me that what I would like to call like onspot creativity or like really reacting in a very close time frame to a change situation is something that I probably because of ADHD always had. >> Mhm. >> But it became ma way more important. >> Okay. >> Yeah. Um, which means that when you have something like and and I'm again back into that AI, you know, area, something like VIP coding, um, the attractiveness of someone with that kind of ADHD might come from the fact that you don't really know what's going to happen when you ask the AI for something to code. >> Mhm. But then when the when the result is not completely nonsense but then at the same time not as something that you wanted it to be then the question is do you start with a new prompt to get what you want or can you pivot and that's where you now um maybe can apply this this kind of superpower and pivot in the moment >> into a direction into the other direction into the other direction. That is something that I found out. Um I didn't know about that and I don't really know if there were like comparable things in the life before that would have given me the opportunity to apply that exercise. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. No, I see that. So um and I mentioned that that >> maybe that is something that you know is true for a lot of more people and it but it's just not something that is easily to discover or to accept or to see. >> Yeah. >> So um so so that is that is >> that's a very >> you could say that is the the >> the idea of the Christian. >> Yeah. >> In a way. >> Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I get that. I think you know in general I want to say I am so happy that I am on this side of this discovery. I feel sorry for in some ways for former meds for all the struggles that he had yeah >> during his life because of it. Um but also grateful it it's good on this side. I think I there's a decision that I had to make >> to make. >> Yeah. >> Is this half full glass or half empty glass of water. >> The half full glass of water is >> I had the chance to do the journey and you helped me with the discovery and I'm super grateful for that and it absolutely changed my life to the better. the half empty glasses. I was extremely old when I when I started the journey and I think the only thing you can do then is to decide because there's nothing that that will tip you from the outside in one or the other direction to decide do you want to see the glass as half full or half empty if that makes sense. And I would like to I would like to have the courage then or the the wish to to see it as half full. >> Yeah. >> Because the other thing is just that is not helpful. >> It's almost back to the serenity prayer that you brought up in the previous episode which is that you can't change the fact that you didn't discover it before. You can have like you can acknowledge um a sadness maybe for things lost but you can't change it. Um but you do have agency now because of what you there are things you can change now because of what you found out. Now is still better than later. >> Yes. And I think everything starting with the prefix agent these days is always good, right? Ha.